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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Perhaps you will provide the figures as soon as you can. To move on to general items, issues arise here in the committee and we are often told that it is the responsibility of your Department. I will start from the beginning, the minute, which is important. You say in your opening statement that you are up to date and everything is fine. That is true. However, the actual response from...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: The Accounting Officer from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade suggested this should be the case. I thought he was very honest and upfront about it, unlike some who come in and gloss over things. There is, as Mr. Watt said, a need within the service to professionalise that particular part of the operation.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: If that was the case, we might not have some of the really serious errors we have. Mr. Watt said he agrees-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: -----but the minute disagrees.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: I think Mr. Watt should read it because I will raise this repeatedly with Accounting Officers.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Mr. Watt might have a look at it again because at the next meeting, it will be an item on the agenda. It is an oversight on our part that we do not discuss those minutes in detail, so we intend to do that and then challenge the result which comes back from Mr. Watt's Department.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: The other area about which I would like to ask is human resources and recruiting people. I will not go into it other than to say I remember the Minister, Deputy Howlin, saying in the Dáil debate - I am not touching on policy here - that the spirit of the legislation on whistleblowers should be adhered to in the context of what might be happening now, even though it might not be fully in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Those who have come forward and who are still employed in different Departments are experiencing the exact opposite to what Mr. Watt described and they have complained to me. Their names are pretty well known and are in the public domain. They have told me they are in their place of employment but are not being given any work to do. When we talk about value for money and extending some...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: The Department has a copy of it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: I have been told there is no record of these arrangements on the files of these people. Is it not extraordinary that in a State organisation, it is not set out clearly how people are being paid? If that is the case, and it is contained in this report, what steps will the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, as the Department overseeing all of this, take? What can it do and what is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: What will Mr. Watt do in regard to this report?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Another issue relating to the HSE has come before this committee, namely consultants signing off on various contracts. When we drilled down into that we found that instead of getting better, the situation had actually gotten worse. Another issue concerned consultants who go over their limit for private work who are supposed to give back the money. What action is taken when it is proven...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: There are two cases involved.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: I am trying to tease out these problems because that is what the HSE said to us when it appeared before us. The HSE said what the Secretary General has just said but what is happening in the hospitals with the consultants is completely at odds with that. They are just continuing on as if the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform does not exist. I am sure the Secretary General does...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: There are 14 different systems.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: How long has the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform had that application from the HSE?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: The HSE has told us that this application is with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: The HSE told us that it requires a new system in order to report on the management of finances right across the spectrum of the HSE. It then told us that an application was with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I am simply asking if the Secretary General will revert to us, as quickly as possible, to let us know when the application was lodged, how it has progressed, its...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 42 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 12 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 13 - Procurement without a Competitive Process
(3 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: In the context of the comments Mr. Watt has just made, he has heard me refer previously to the Local Government Audit Service. This is a policy matter, which I will not discuss. However, I will state that it is ridiculous that although we have one set of auditors in one location and another set somewhere else, it took action on the part of the Comptroller and Auditor General to reveal...

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