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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: When the Minister was looking for this additional capital, did he tell any of his Cabinet colleagues that he was looking at a massive overrun on the children's hospital and that this was one of the reasons he needed more capital?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: The Minister stated that there was broad awareness across Departments, including the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, that a process was under way. Did the Minister tell the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance or any of his Cabinet colleagues that this was a major issue with which he was dealing and could have significant implications for the budget-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: Given that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform said yesterday that it would have been helpful and the Taoiseach said that he was in disbelief when the Minister for Health told him, with the benefit of hindsight, does the Minister think that the information might have been pertinent to everybody in terms of the budget process?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: I acknowledge the Minister has been answering questions for several hours but I want to bring this back to the hospital. This is the fourth session we have had on the hospital. We have met the development board, the hospital group, the HSE, the Department of Health and this is the second time we have met the Minister. A common theme we are hearing at committee is that while it is all very...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: The two most expensive hospitals, including the Karolinska in Stockholm, came in at €1.6 billion and €1.8 billion, and we know that this is going to come in at €3.7 billion. Let us take an example closer to home.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: One always knows one is on to something when one is being heckled by the Fine Gael members of the committee.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: Let us take an example closer to home, if international examples are not good enough. The new Mater hospital extension was finished in 2014. It has an emergency department, it has outpatients-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: It has 12 operating theatres, it has a spinal injuries and high dependency unit-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: It has radiology-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: It has intensive care, it has research and it has 134 single-occupancy en suite rooms. It came in at approximately €284 million. If we were to very conservatively scale that up by a factor of three, even though it does not have any of the economies of scale, one arrives at a figure of about €850 million which is still less than half of the cost of the children's hospital.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: Even if we accept that a children's hospital needs additional things that the Mater hospital did not need, it still came in at less than half the cost, without any of the economies of scale. When I put this to the Minister and the officials, the defence consistently is that it is not the way to look at it and if one looks at the cost per square metre, they have this quantity surveyors'...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: I thank the Minister for addressing all of the points. This is the core of the issue. He just said his report, which he and his officials have used to defend the cost, indicated that the children's hospital will cost a little over €6,000 per square metre but that building an equivalent hospital in London would cost €9,000 per square metre. Is it, therefore, the Minister's...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: I understand that. This is important.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: It is a different point. I apologise to the Minister, but can we just go back. This is the core point. I am still not clear in my mind as to whether the Minister believes that €1.4 billion represents a reasonable price for the children's hospital.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: The Minister believes that it is.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: Does the Minister believe it represents value for money?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: That is a statement of fact. Is it, however, the Minister's view that it represents good value for money at €1.4 billion?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: I appreciate the Minister's answer but it does not answer the question I am asking. The Minister just said he believes the cost is reasonable.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: It is a fair point but, with respect, it does not answer the question I am asking.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Stephen Donnelly: I am trying to understand what the Government's position is because its defence of the overrun of €450 million or more is that, according to its quantity surveyors, this is still pretty good value for money, even at €1.4 billion, because it is less than it would cost in London. Is that the Minister's view?

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