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Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: Who are those persons?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: What action has Mr. O'Brien taken in respect of those individuals?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: Doing what?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: So the people who were a part of the problem the first day are now the ones we are relying on, in part, to fix the problem.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: Perhaps Mr. O'Brien can answer this question because he said there is a distance between a systemic failure and a systems failure. Will he very briefly point out the differences between a systemic failure and a systems failure?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: Is that not a systemic failure on foot of the fact that the decision was never taken to tell them? The decision was made to give discretion to consultants to inform them.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: No, we do not.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: As the director general, Mr. O'Brien is responsible for systemic failures but not systems failure.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: It is a simple "Yes" or "No".

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: Is Mr. O'Brien responsible for systemic failures but not systems failures?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: It is a simple question. Is Mr. O'Brien, as the director general of the HSE, responsible for systemic failures? If it was a systemic failure, is it correct that Mr. O'Brien would resign?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: If it was a systemic failure, would Mr. O'Brien take full responsibility for it and resign? As it is a systems failure, Mr. O'Brien refuses to take responsibility for it.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: That is fair enough, but I am not about to give Mr. O'Brien a get-out-of-jail card. I have one final question. I know other members want to come in. To me, a systems failure would be if a decision was taken to inform the women and then that decision did not happen.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: For me, a systemic failure is when the body decides it should tell people but decides to leave it to somebody else and at somebody else's discretion. That is a systemic failure because there was no firm decision taken to inform the women. That was in February 2016, through the circular. It was not until 30 April 2018 that the HSE changed that position and said that each hospital group was...

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: Up to 30 April, there was ambiguity around this issue on whether women should be told or who was responsible for telling them or whether it was at somebody's discretion to tell them. Yes or no?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: That is a systemic failure which Mr. O'Brien does not take responsibility for.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: I asked Mr. O'Brien as simple question and he will not answer.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: Is Mr. O'Brien responsible for systemic failures within the HSE or not responsible for systems failures? Yes or no?

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: Not when we are trying to establish who was responsible for them.

Public Accounts Committee: State Claims, Management of Legal Costs and Policy on Open Disclosure
Implications of CervicalCheck Revelations
2016 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency
2016 Financial Statements of the HSE
(10 May 2018)

Jonathan O'Brien: I know Mr. O'Brien needs to get away to Limerick, so I will be very brief. He said that the central issue, apart from the trauma for the women involved, was the failure to follow through on the planned communication to inform the women. He said that if the process had been carried through, there would be no women who were not informed. Is that is correct?

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