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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Ms Emily O'Reilly told us.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Most of the arguments have been fairly well rehearsed at this stage but I would like to challenge the Minister a little on the issue of the economic climate. The two main reasons he gave to Deputy Donnelly for retaining the €15 upfront fee were that the economic climate requires it and to make it workable, or manage the demand. The Minister said he did not say "manage the demand"....

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Managing demand is completely different.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Let me put a couple of points to the Minister about each of those reasons he gave. I also put it to him that there is another reason. In regard to the economic climate, the Minister told Deputy Donnelly he cannot make an estimate of the cost. I refer to the evidence given by the former Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly. She said we currently get €85,000 per year. The number of areas...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: The Minister is not directly answering my point. I am reading directly from Ms Emily O'Reilly's evidence. She said the total amount of money between research, search and retrieval fees amounts to €85,000 in a year. Even if it quadrupled under the new regime, which I do not think it would, the Minister cannot seriously claim, in terms of the Government's finances, that this is a...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: If I might say, the analogy of the leaders' allowance is pretty tenuous because that is about what the leaders of political parties get and somewhat controversial-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Yes, indeed. The leaders of political parties get it while Independents get a different allowance. All parties get a leaders' allowance per Deputy, something which the Minister sometimes does not mention. The bigger parties get a bonus on top of that but let us not get into that. That is a contentious area and some people would say politicians get too much. The purpose of this Bill,...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I have no desire to spend longer than is necessary here and this is the last, but one, of the major contentious areas of this Bill. I wish to make a number of points and do not believe I am repeating myself. I am asking the Minister a direct question. Does he accept what Emily O'Reilly said, that the fee is an impediment to the public accessing information?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I put it to the Minister-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: It is self-evident that a fee of €15 is an impediment for those who are less well off. I do not think the Minister can claim otherwise. The Minister's argument is difficult to sustain. Emily O'Reilly also said in her evidence that she knew that the Minister was of the view that the fee acts as a brake on people who might be using the Act in a frivolous way. Was that just Ms...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I raise this because the Minister was asked for his reasons-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I am finished now except to say that in terms of the procedure here, at the outset of the discussion on this section, the Minister said that the amendment he intends to resubmit is this one, minus one part. We accept that this is an improvement and are now debating the rest of the section, which is the most controversial section, dealing with the upfront fee. In that context, I do not see...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: We can do it then.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I do not want to be pedantic.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: With all due respect, we are not wandering. We are dealing with the substantial issue of the fee.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: This is the section of the Bill that deals with it.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: The arguments have been made for the deletion of this section. I concur with the view put forward by a person who I consider to be expert in the area, the former Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly. In her view, the reason the fee was introduced was to dampen people's ardour for seeking public records. It certainly worked. Retaining the fee will have that effect, notwithstanding the fact that I...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: We had our discussion and I intend to raise this issue on Report Stage. The semi-State sector encompasses a great number of employees and it has a significant impact on society, on our economy and on our environment. Consequently I do not think it is acceptable to exempt those bodies. I appeal to the Minister to vary the approach by deciding they should be subject to FOI unless they need...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: This is a particular example.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (Resumed) (13 Nov 2013)

Richard Boyd Barrett: The felling by Coillte may have had an impact on the problems in Ballymore Eustace. That is a serious issue and it should be subject to FOI.

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