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Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Is that because the National Shared Services Office does not deal with that and the Oireachtas does?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: It is likely it did not arise because there are two different providers and it is unlikely that the same mistake was made by both providers.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I will move on to the standard funds threshold and the chargeable excess tax, CET, scheme. I am looking for clarification on the idea of a pension pot. A number of people have spoken about when a pension pot exceeds €2 million. My understanding of public sector pensions is there is no pot. It is effectively payment for one's retirement. It is dealt with as a salary but the person...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I do not understand how a pot is accrued because there is no pot to calculate.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: It is a financial estimate. We are aware that the salaries and pensions of civil servants have changed over time. In fact, they have decreased. It is easy to calculate when a person has a very large pension pot of €2 million. The person has €2 million in an account and the amount they should be charged is known. It seems that we are entering shaky territory when we are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: If reductions were made then repayments will be made back. Is that how this applies?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I think the term it uses is crystallisation.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: In reality, it is not worth €20. That is a notional amount.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: There is no pot where civil servant X has a certain sum in an account. That does not exist.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: If that were to change in the future, such as if there were a reduction, for example, would that be owed back?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: When the FEMPI measures were introduced, there was no review at that point because people had retired.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I want to move to broader issues of public expenditure and focus on the tenant in situ scheme. It is a good initiative. Most small businesses would say it is often cheaper to buy their premises than to rent them. I have a big issue with how we procure housing under the HAP scheme. Some of the most vulnerable people in the country are essentially procuring on behalf of the State. They are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I am asking about the value for money element.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: It is a landlord's decision to sell a home that, often, the person has occupied for a long time. I have never received a complaint form someone at the top of the housing waiting list about a person who has been in a HAP property for ten or 15 years having an unfair advantage. That is not an argument that is being made.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: One could also counter the argument about estate management costs. There is a cost to concentrating low-income housing in one area and that is often an additional cost to the State. Mixed tenure or mixed income are far better principles to apply. I am surprised that the Department of public expenditure is not telling the Department of housing that the latter should be progressing the tenant...

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Mr. Moloney is the Accounting Officer with responsibility for public expenditure. I am not asking about Government policy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I have one last question and I am over my time. Has the Department carried out any value for money exercises related to the tenant in situ scheme and HAP?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Could Mr. Moloney make it available to the committee?

Public Accounts Committee: 2023 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
Chapter 3 - Vote accounting and budget management
(10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I would appreciate that.

Domestic, Sexual and Gender-Based Violence: Statements (10 Jul 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I also join others in calling out the scourge of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence in our society. It should be called out at all junctures - in WhatsApp groups, in sports clubs, in our local pubs and here in the Dáil. I acknowledge the work of the Minister's predecessor, Deputy McEntee, in terms of the legislation, which Deputy Connolly has previously referenced, and also the...

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