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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: St. Vincent's Hospital is a classic example.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: After nine months, eight organisations have been identified as being compliant. We are not even 20% of the way to verifying compliance in respect of 48. I will not go back to the report in respect of the timescale, when certain things were to be verified in different months and at different dates. I am aware the report came into the public arena a couple of weeks ago. Between March and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: In terms of compliance.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Is that a different issue?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: What is the deadline as of today, 19 December? What is the deadline for the other 32 organisations to confirm compliance and for the HSE to meet them in order to be satisfied in that regard? What is the timescale involved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The remaining 32 which have stated they are compliant but about which the HSE is not sure-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: What is the HSE's timescale to get to the end of the 44 organisations? By what date will it be able to state it has verified that all 44 organisations are compliant? The taxpayer needs to know this. In ten minutes the CEO of the HSE will give a briefing on the HSE's service plan in the audio-visual room. However, the taxpayer needs to know today whether the HSE will have done this by the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Does the HSE have a timescale?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The end of March-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The HSE should tell them that is nonsense. It costs the same to carry out an audit in March as it does in July. The cost does not go up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Mr. O'Brien is now talking about the compliance statement to be produced with the annual audited accounts. There are two processes involved and Mr. O'Brien is merging the two. One involves the internal audit report; then, as Mr. O'Brien said, there is the broader compliance issue.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: When will the HSE receive reports indicating this has been fully implemented?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The Revised Estimates for 2014 were published yesterday and in due course the Oireachtas will vote to give the HSE €13 billion. In the first instance, the responsibility is on the Accounting Officer for the HSE - I am not sure whether it is Dr. McLoughlin or Mr. O'Brien - to ensure the money is spent in compliance with regulations. In the second instance, the onus is on section 38...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Mr. O'Brien is moving on. I am a little frustrated because he is moving on and saying the HSE wants the 2013 audited accounts to be completed by the end of the first quarter of 2014. We are in the week before Christmas and I suspect it is possible some of the organisations have not yet completed their audited reports for 2012. I do not get the purpose in having externally audited reports....

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Yes, but Mr. O'Brien told me 32 had not been verified and that they would be met in the new year. It is slipping.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: It is a very tight timescale.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Mr. O'Brien has just told us about the circular issued on 27 September which talked about one person-one salary. The Taoiseach reiterated it verbatim in the House that people could not receive top-ups on their salaries. If one has a contract with a section 38 institution, one is a public servant. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The Taoiseach has stated in the Dáil - he quoted the circular - that there cannot be top-up payments. There is no ambiguity about this.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Could we ask representatives of the HSE to come on the first Thursday in February with an absolute assurance that it will have verified that all 44 organisations are compliant? Do Mr. O'Brien understand from where we are coming? That will be ten months from the date of the internal audit report. How long will it take to verify this specific aspect of the internal audit report? Is it too...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: When will that be?

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