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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: There is generally a link in these fraudulent messages but some legitimate companies also put links in their text messages. It is obviously in companies' interests not to include links. That would be a very easy way to differentiate between a fraudulent message and a genuine one. There would be no link in a non-fraudulent message.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: An Internet service provider, ISP, recently had to send me a new modem to put in. That was followed up by a text message that came from an ordinary mobile number. It did not come up under the name of the ISP. There was no link in the message, but it contained a request to respond with a number if help was needed with the installation. Is that what Ms Davenport is talking about? Is that a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: Where a fraudulent message has been sent, is there anybody at the receiving end if the customer responds by text? This is all computer- and mass-generated stuff. Even when the message comes from a mobile number, it is just purporting to be an Irish mobile number. Is that the case, or is it coming from an international number?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: I get that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: So it is displaying as 085 or 087 numbers or whatever.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: That is grand. I was interested in that. On the reporting of fraud, does the federation advise people who have received a fraudulent text message - and we have all received them - to report it to the Garda first?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: We should report it to the bank.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: So, essentially, we do not know how wide the net is or how fine the mesh in that net is. Everybody in this room could have received a text message this week, and nobody knows that, except the recipient?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: We also do not know if there is a failure rate or mistake rate, as it were, of 1%, 0.5% or 0.1% of people who receive these message and click on them. We do not know the extent of the messages that have gone out, therefore we do not know that there is a very small number of people who click on these emails.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: That is when the banks are interested. It is like a bunch of burglars hanging around outside your door, and it is only when one breaks the door down that we record it and know that it is happening. It is about how to deal with the prevalence of it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: This is my last question. At the moment, for any of us who resist the temptation to click on the message, do not fall for it or realise that it is a scam, there is no one entity that it should be reported to. It is only when it becomes an actual fraudulent unauthorised payment or mistake that it is reported to the bank. Aside from receiving the message, we do not have a reporting strategy...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: I thank the witnesses for their work on this and for their time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: I know but if I have not used an app in the past year, I do not need it. It is gone now. If you delete an app that can trace and monitor your finger strokes or keyboard strokes, is it gone or is it embedded on the phone?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: How do they map them? You can still purchase a non-bill paying mobile phone number in Ireland. There is just a number, and the account is not associated with any address. I do not know what information a customer needs to go and buy one of these phones now. How are the fraudsters acquiring those mobile numbers?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: Okay. That is where the customer has fallen through the first hole and has actually clicked on the message and is half way through the process. Some people probably pull back when they realise it is a fraudulent message, and others will go all the way with it. All of us are receiving text message on a weekly basis. Who is collating that information? Who knows that I have received five...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: General Scheme of the Land Value Sharing and Urban Development Zones Bill 2022: Discussion (Resumed) (25 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: I welcome everybody to the meeting. The committee meets again to carry out pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the land value sharing and urban development zones Bill 2022. I welcome the representatives from the County and City Management Association, Ms AnnMarie Farrelly, chief executive of Fingal County Council; Ms Máire Igoe, acting executive manager of Dublin City...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: General Scheme of the Land Value Sharing and Urban Development Zones Bill 2022: Discussion (Resumed) (25 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: Ms Farrelly is probably aware that this is our third meeting on this matter. We met with Department officials last week. The Irish Planning Institute was in earlier this week. Next week, we will be meeting with construction developers and valuers. We could write to the Department about the clarification points raised by Ms Farrelly if there are common areas in respect of which we are all...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: General Scheme of the Land Value Sharing and Urban Development Zones Bill 2022: Discussion (Resumed) (25 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: Will we come back to the question about the four zoning valuations?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: General Scheme of the Land Value Sharing and Urban Development Zones Bill 2022: Discussion (Resumed) (25 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: I want to bring in Deputy Cian O'Callaghan. I do not want to rush an answer to that question. May I bring in Deputy O'Callaghan?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: General Scheme of the Land Value Sharing and Urban Development Zones Bill 2022: Discussion (Resumed) (25 May 2023)

Steven Matthews: Does the Deputy have sufficient time? Okay.