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Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I know the Minister is dealing with multiple points on this but could I just get his view on the point I raised? He has not come back to me on it. He has made the point that he would seek medical input on what "extraordinary" means. That is fine. I am raising a different point, which is a legislative point. Medics can give us their view but really it is a legal point. This defines...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Could we stick on this bit for a second if the Minister does not mind?

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: The Minister is going into medical emergencies but my point is not about medical emergencies. I agree with the Minister's intent. What the Minister has just said, and what Dr. Boylan said, is what we want. The point I am making is that is not what is written here. What is written here-----

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Will the Minister allow me to go on once more?

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: What we want is, in a case whereby a woman's life or serious health is at risk and two obstetricians are deciding whether to perform a termination of pregnancy, for one of the tests to be based on whether the pregnancy is viable. What this legislation says, clearly and unambiguously, is that when it is being determined whether a pregnancy is viable, the test to be used is not the normal...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I hear the Minister but viability is defined in terms of a foetus being capable of survival without extraordinary life-sustaining measures. That is how it has been defined.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Now he is saying that, to keep the foetus alive in the short term, one can use extraordinary life-sustaining measures.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I understand that.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: We are talking about the grouping here. I am proposing amendment No. 44, which seeks to include the words "and ascertained her views". It has been pointed out by several people - and I do not believe it was intentional - that the focus is very much on the doctors in the way this Bill has been written. There are suggested terms which read, "Two doctors, having examined the pregnant woman",...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I take it that the Minister will bring forward a series of amendments. Is there any reason not to accept amendment No. 44? That is, essentially, to include "and ascertained her views".

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I move amendment No. 50:In page 9, line 14, after "viability" to insert the following:"being the point in a pregnancy at which the foetus is capable of survival outside the uterus without extraordinary life-sustaining measures".

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I move amendment No. 51:In page 9, line 15, to delete "appropriate" and substitute "necessary". The amendment proposes to change one word. It proposes to change "appropriate", to "necessary". According to the conditions under which a termination is allowable under section 10 because of a risk to life or health, one of the three criteria is that it is appropriate to carry out the...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Just to be clear, from my perspective, I would not oppose the amendment. It is not one that has come from me, but it has been tabled on behalf of people who have a different view.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: However, having listened to their views and with a view to trying to respect that there are many views across the country-----

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: -----as long as it would not restrict effect in the real world, I actually think showing respect to the spectrum of views on this issue is good. That has been reflected at the committee today. If the Minister is telling me that there is a legal issue with it and that he has so been informed, he must not take this the wrong way, but I need it to be more than just his view. If the medics are...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: If the Minister is saying the medics have told him that this is a problem, we have to take that seriously also.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: This set of amendments is actually very important. Amendment No. 58 in my name would provide that, if the certifying medical practitioner was not available to carry out the termination certified as necessary or appropriate, another medical practitioner would be able to carry it out. The Minister has referenced advice he has received from the Royal College of General Practitioners and the...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I thank the Minister for his response. That seems reasonable, though I would like to add a caveat, which is that we meet informally as a committee on this. I want to avoid a situation whereby the first we know of his intent is after the amendment deadline. As he and I discussed this earlier, I sought a briefing on a wide range of issues and was given guarantees that I would get a briefing...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I thank the Minister. That has to be before Report Stage and before the deadline for us to table amendments.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I move amendment No. 58:In page 9, lines 27 and 28, to delete “subsection (2)(a).” and substitute the following:“subsection (2)(a), or (c) by an appropriate medical practitioner, if the medical practitioners referred to in subsection (2) are not available.”.

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