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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: That is useful to know. We then come to another question of interpretation. In his opening statement, Mr. Menton indicated that the values of St. Vincent's Healthcare Group could not be interpreted as relating to a different ethos but values are, of course, interpreted. That is the nature and it is the job. I note that Professor Deirdre Madden and others specifically stated that boards do...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Sorry, just to be clear but legally permissible is separate. The reference is to the hospital being established under a clinically appropriate and legally permissible framework. We can take that as legally permissible but I am asking about the interpretation of the phrase "human dignity" as, for example, it might apply to "clinically appropriate".

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I gave two interpretations of the phrase "human dignity". The first is from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and refers to human dignity as beginning from birth. The second was from the universal declaration of human dignity, which refers to every single human being from conception.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I understand that but Ms Reynolds can see what we mean by interpretable. Those are two different interpretations of that phrase, both of which are in the public domain. She will see why it would be relevant. Perhaps she will follow up in writing regarding what the definition is, given that in one definition it begins specifically at birth and in another it specifically begins at conception.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: That value is interpreted in relation to patient care and decisions in respect of that, which would impact on the ethos. I note that this is what Professor Deirdre Madden and others identified, namely, that ethos does matter. The new constitution dating from April of this year refers to the "voice of the voiceless". I want to understand how the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group, which will...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: It will be nominating members to the new proposed national maternity hospital body-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: This is why it is relevant how St. Vincent's Healthcare Group interprets these values.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: No, not the holding company but in fact the national maternity hospital DAC.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: The witnesses may follow up in writing. We did not get much of a sense of how the voice of the voiceless argument might be interpreted. That is fine. It is another example of why removing "clinically appropriate" might be useful. Do the witnesses think it is a little excessive to have three members of the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group on the board of this new entity? It is the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: It creates a tension, however, because the national maternity hospital is effectively there as a tenant of a landlord. Having the landlord chair the board of the tenant seems to create somewhat of a tension. I just might two or three points on the contract.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I will give Mr. Menton a chance to answer a couple of questions at the same time. I would appreciate a response on the issue of the chairmanship. On the 30-year option for the State, why not 70 years? We have been told 70 years is the expected lifespan of the first hospital, so why not have 70 years in terms of that first lifetime? Would that not give some more security to the State that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Mr. O'Rallaghaigh mentioned his concerns in relation to selling the freehold to the State. Would that not also apply to selling it to someone else? If it only applies at this point before the hospital is built, then why not continue to have a first refusal on the freehold for the 70 years of the first hospital?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: It is a very unusual situation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I must have-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Am I out of time?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I apologise. Could I just ask one last question?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: If it is possible, could the witnesses answer the question on options for the State to exit.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Mr. Menton mentioned another negotiation, which concerns me. As it seems in the lease there is simply a requirement that there would be maternity hospitals and that if there is not a maternity hospital, there is a return to the €850,000 rent, which is the actual rent that is waived and reduced to €10. We mentioned earlier when that might apply. Permitted use is one of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I think the terms of the lease were considerably worse than anybody expected when that was being discussed, in terms of the €850,000 liability, potentially, if the State does not continue to have hospitals on that ground.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Alice-Mary Higgins: We keep saying that to use it as a hospital is the obligation. The obligation is permitted use, which includes reference to using it as a hospital and includes reference to clinically appropriate, so just permitted use-----

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