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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does Ms Lawler, manager of the HSE national human resources directorate, have an update on the position of St. Vincent’s hospital?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: St. Vincent’s hospital has replied not once but twice. To leave out the information once could be deemed careless; to do it twice could be deemed unfortunate. I do not believe this is good enough. Does Mr. O’Brien believe the hospital is in compliance with public sector pay guidelines, based on what he has just heard from Ms Lawler?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Is that “Yes” or “No”?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What will the HSE do about it? We have letters going back over a month and a half. It is like ping pong, we are getting into the middle of it and I want the game to stop. A section 38 organisation is publicly coming out and issuing a rebuke to the HSE, saying "get lost". The HSE is funding the CRC with taxpayers' money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What is the HSE going to do about it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: He should not be dictating-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I had a quick look at Ms Smith's internal audit report. Page 8 refers to 12 section 38 organisations, to the tune of €902,472, paying externally funded salaries and allowances. Those agencies include St. Vincent's University Hospital, COPE Foundation, CRC, St. Michael's House, the Coombe Women and Infants University Hospital, the Mater hospital, the National Maternity Hospital, Our...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does Ms Smith believe St. Vincent's is not in compliance with the two circulars?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: It is not.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: On the compliance statements, the section 38 organisations are being asked to make comments by today.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: How many of the section 38 organisations have come back? They are not required to give written confirmation until the end of January. I would have thought the HSE would seek written confirmation before the start of the new year. Why did it not? This has been going on for a significant period of time. Why is confirmation stretching out into 2014?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Typically when would these section 38 organisations receive their funding for 2014?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: When would the SLAs be typically signed?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Why would they not be signed before the beginning of the year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: We requested information of the CRC board when it came before us, particularly in the area of CRC Medical Devices and how that was funded. We are conscious about the reputation of the great work the CRC does. What type of structures are in place and when will we have that information?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: The charity sector does phenomenal work. People are out there today fundraising for various charities up and down the country, many on a voluntary basis. We had the CRC before us last week. In St. Vincent's Hospital there are three people involved. St. Vincent's employs a significant number of people doing fantastic work on the ground. It is grossly unacceptable, unnecessary and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I have a final question for Dr. Smith. From my reading of the internal audit report 12 organisations are paying externally funded salaries and allowances above the Government pay guidelines. The total number of allowance being paid is 47. However, some managers could be receiving double payments.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What is the total number of managers involved in the 12 organisations concerned.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Okay. In regard to the 47 allowances, how many individuals are involved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: There are 34 people involved.

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