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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: There is a note flagged by the Comptroller and Auditor General which mentions non-performance of a review of the effectiveness of the system of internal control. What does that mean?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: With regard to the interdepartmental co-ordination group and the steering group, does Ms McGrath accept there was a lack of clarity and urgency and a level of inaction regarding the work of both of these groups?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: What is Ms McGrath's understanding of the remit of the interdepartmental co-ordination group and of the steering group when they were first established?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Earlier Ms McGrath stated there was a balance between getting it right and getting it timely. What is her view of the remit of both of these groups? Was there a lack of clarity? Paragraph 5.10 on page 48 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:Oversight bodies were established to monitor the implementation of each pilot project and national CFRAM study. However, in the...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: The report states the OPW was unable to provide terms of reference for the steering and progress groups.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Certainly, questions are raised in the context of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General about the remit and terms of reference for the interdepartmental group and the national steering group. Ms McGrath stated there were no problems, but the report states there were.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: I understand that, but that is another layer of oversight. With regard to the two groups, there seems to be a conflict between what the Comptroller and Auditor General states in the report and what Ms McGrath is saying. The Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General does not believe it received sufficient responses from the OPW on this issue.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: What does that mean? They are either in terms of reference or they are not. Were there terms of reference for the groups?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Why would the group make a decision to go into abeyance and suspend its work? There would have to be logic for this and it would have to go back to its terms of reference. I do not see on what basis this decision was made. It then decided it would reconvene after the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It seems a bit of a coincidence that a decision was made after the report.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: I am satisfied, from my perspective, that there was a lack of clarity on the terms of reference. I want to move on to the pilot projects as I have a number of questions on them. We know there were cost overruns and overspend. A valid point was made by the Chairman at the start of the meeting, that the information we have on each of the pilots is up to 2014. It would be useful if we could...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Page 45 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, paragraphs 4.22 and 4.25, states:OPW has also made payments totalling €1.24 million to principal contractors on two of the pilot projects in compensation for project delays and some additional works that had not been agreed in advance - €636,000 – river Lee pilot - €603,000 – Fingal/East Meath pilot....

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Ms McGrath accepts then that there was failure. When the report states the Accounting Officer's response was, "I do not agree that the recommended procedures were not in place", is Ms McGrath accepting that was an incorrect statement to make in response to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report? It is on page 51, recommendation 5.3.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: That is not the point being raised. Of course, there was budgets. The point is that there was money paid out in compensation. My reading of the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendation is that there were not sufficient projections made in relation to budget provision. It did not make proper provisions for VAT. The Comptroller and Auditor General might comment. I believe there is...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Does the Comptroller and Auditor General accept the response from the OPW?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 92 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Strategic Planning for Flood Risk Management (14 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: I have one last quick question in relation to the submission to the EU on the flood mapping, which was only a fraction of what was to be submitted and the reasons given for that. On the flood risk hazard maps, a decision was taken not to submit them and it might of been for genuine reasons. This may be more of a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General. Should we be cherry-picking...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statement 2015 (15 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: I welcome Mr. O'Brien and the large team accompanying him. I will allow him to answer the questions. I understand, as the previous speaker did, the difference between section 38 and section 39 funding. Hopefully, we will not need to repeat that as we want to get the best use of the time we have. I find Mr. O'Brien's opening statement extraordinary. The answers to the questions put so...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statement 2015 (15 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Below the rankings it states that where recommendations may have systemic national or regional implications the rankings are shown as high, medium or low. All of the findings were ranked as high. It continues to define systemic as where particular audit findings of a serious nature may, in the opinion of the auditors, be replicated elsewhere in the HSE. It continues to state that all the...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statement 2015 (15 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: This is not an ordinary audit. Its findings are extraordinary. In Mr. O'Brien's experience, has he seen an internal audit before that had 60 findings all categorised as high, and also a report from his own auditors which states that many of them have national implications for the HSE? I am sure Mr. O'Brien is aware that auditors are very careful about the language that they use and they do...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statement 2015 (15 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: That is Mr. O'Brien's interpretation but people might put a different interpretation on what the auditors meant. Mr. O'Brien is putting a more positive slant on what they meant by national implications. As I stated, with all seriousness, when one considers the gravity of the report, one must accept that this is highly unusual in its findings, in terms of every single finding being ranked as...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statement 2015 (15 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: With respect, what I was trying to get to is as follows. I want to move on to another set of issues that relate to this issue as well and direct them to Mr. O'Brien. I thank Ms O'Connor for the response. If it was just the red flags that were raised by individuals in 2006, 2009 and 2011, then that would be one issue. The problem is that when one then looks at other failings within the...

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