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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Is it only relevant to the confidential papers of Members of the Dáil that exists at the time?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: In layman's English, will the Minister explain what he means by "papers"? Do they include representations to my constituency office, communications via the Oireachtas e-mail system, etc.? The Minister and former Deputy Jim Higgins received some documents.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: If a Member issued a defamatory letter, would it be legally protected?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Will the Minister explain this? It indicates that if an inquiry is completed and the House is dissolved, this will not stop any ongoing legal proceedings.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: This deals with evidence on oath but what is meant in this respect? With somebody who does not believe in swearing on the Bible, what alternative mechanisms are provided for? I can think of a Member who recently had to swear something other than an oath.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: This section deals with offences by a body corporate, namely a business or a company. Lots of banks, for example, are companies and, in that context, how strong is this section? Perhaps the issue is dealt with in other sections of the legislation, but the references to banks and corporate organisations in the Bill seem to be very light, in terms of sanctions. A fine of €500,000 for...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: There needs to be a parallel sanction for companies. I would say, for example, that a bank should lose its licence for five years. If a person is going to go to jail for five years for falling foul of this legislation, he or she is being taken out of commission, so to speak. A body corporate should suffer similar consequences and forfeit its tax clearance, its licence or some such for the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: I understand that it is very serious but-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Perhaps we could disqualify the entire board of directors and top levels of management-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Earlier we had a discussion with the Information Commissioner. In this legislation, the Minister proposes to exclude records in respect of inquiry into the business of the committee. Will the Minister talk through this section for me, given that although he is an exponent of freedom of information he is seeking here to restrict it?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Is it the Minister's opinion that FOI should extend to everybody bar us?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Even after the completion of a report and the dissolution of the Dáil?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: It is the same issue again, the directing of FOI. Does the Minister have a separate note on this section?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: We have no problem with this. There was a report in the newspapers on our attendance, gained from the fobs or electronic attendance papers, which record our mileage and every time we use the fobs. Many records are published-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: We are repeating the 1997 Act in this Act. If we did not restate what we had deleted it would be lost.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Non-Disclosure Provisions Under the Freedom of Information Act: Discussion with Information Commissioner (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: I welcome Ms O'Reilly. I ask her to explain the last paragraph on page 1 of her presentation more slowly because it is complicated. Section 32 is a very important provision because it subordinates the access provisions to the FOI Act to all non-disclosure provisions in other statute, apart from those included in the Third Schedule to the FOI Act. I ask her to break that down in steps for...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Non-Disclosure Provisions Under the Freedom of Information Act: Discussion with Information Commissioner (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: As Information Commissioner, Ms O'Reilly's wish would be that more items would be included in the Third Schedule.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Non-Disclosure Provisions Under the Freedom of Information Act: Discussion with Information Commissioner (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Fortunately or unfortunately I was on the committee which dealt with this issue. It was complicated and we had trouble drafting a report. I ask Ms Reilly to comment on, for the benefit of everyone else, any of the Departments mentioned. Page 34 refers to the Department of Health and says 24 non-disclosure provisions are already included in the Third Schedule. The Department has them, Ms...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Non-Disclosure Provisions Under the Freedom of Information Act: Discussion with Information Commissioner (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Ms O'Reilly is happy with that. The next schedule on page 36 refers to the Department of Health and states that the Department recommends the following non-disclosure provisions should not be put into the Third Schedule. Ms O'Reilly agrees with some of it and disagrees with other aspects.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Non-Disclosure Provisions Under the Freedom of Information Act: Discussion with Information Commissioner (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: The Schedule where the Department wants to exclude something from the Third Schedule is the section we are discussing because we are agreed about the other aspects. The top of page 36 refers to the European Communities (Active Implantable Medical Devices) (Amendment) Regulations 2009. The Department wants to exclude it but Ms O'Reilly disagrees and wants to include it. I will not go into...

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