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Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: I hope it will not sound arrogant to state that there appears to be a complete misunderstanding as to what happened. First, I will reiterate the point in my speech that there was no misappropriation, no money was misspent and no money went missing. It was not the case that any capital money was used on the revenue side. I wish to make it clear that that did not happen. As for Deputy Twomey's...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: No, he did not. As for the Department of Finance memorandum dated 28 June, it stated that it would be wrong to spend any capital money on current expenditure or vice versa, and it would have been wrong had it happened in this case. However, I will reiterate my earlier remarks. On 22 December, the HSE gave the Department a forecast. Each month the HSE meets the Department and we align...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: No, it did not spend capital money.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: We are discussing possible outcomes. The outturn will be revealed on 31 March. Lest Members do not understand, we have moved from an accounting system based on income and expenditure under the old health boards. Under that system, one measures what is spent, what is raised, what income has been generated that has not yet been received and what expenditure has been incurred that has not yet...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: Kevin Kelly was the Accounting Officer from 1 January. He was the acting CEO of the organisation and I believe that Professor Drumm became the Accounting Officer on 14 August, when he took over as CEO. With regard to the capital side, clearly capital projects are scaled or phased. The capital budget was not approved until July 2005 because of the transitional arrangements from the old health...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: If we are going to answer questions about this issue, it is important that we deal with reality rather than with perceptions. It is not the case that the HSE had a sum of capital funding available, intended for all kinds of capital projects, which it decided to switch over to spend on salaries, wages or other current expenditure, such as the items mentioned by Deputy Bruton earlier when he...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: Of course it would be subject to approval. If it did what has been suggested, namely, to use capital money for current expenditure, it would be a serious breach of the rules.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: No, there may have to be a Supplementary Estimate. It does not know that it will get permission to do so.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: The reason we moved from the income and expenditure basis for accounting to the accrual method is to have an exact picture, greater transparency and greater accountability. I strongly stand over the decision of the Government to make the chief executive officer, who has responsibility for delivering services, also financially accountable. I stand over that because one cannot have...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: The Department of Finance stated in a memo to the Committee of Public Accounts that it would take some time to make the transition from 11 financing systems into one. They are doing extraordinarily well. Among the staff at the HSE level are people who worked formerly for the Comptroller and Auditor General. The HSE has much expertise in this area. This is the largest change management process...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: ——and one of the largest ever done in the world. That is a fact. It is being done for good reasons, to provide a more streamlined effective delivery of health care.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: The answer to the first part of the Deputy's question is "No". The answer to the second part is we have invested substantial new moneys in home help for 2006. It is not a question of there being any——

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: There is not. There are ceilings in the health system. It does not apply to home help, to accident and emergency services or to the packages for disability and the elderly. We have appointed more than 40,000 new staff to the health service in the past seven years. Clearly we must be prudent and sensible in the areas where we recruit new staff. It would be mainly in the area of front-line...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: As the Deputy will be aware, most of the CEOs have retired and are in other jobs.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: Deputy Burton is an accountant and no doubt understands, perhaps more than most, the difference between income and expenditure and accrual accounting etc.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: She accuses me of getting involved in creative accounting by stating there is a €4 million surplus and yet she goes on about €112 million. In order not to confuse people — Deputy Burton is a member of the Committee of Public Accounts — the outturn for 2005 must be clear by 31 March when the CEO signs off on the accounts and presents them to the Comptroller and Auditor General. That...

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: No. All day we are being accused of overspending, mismanagement and misappropriation.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: No, it is not.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: Nobody misappropriated any money or misspent any money.

Vote for the Health Service Executive 2005-06: Statements. (26 Jan 2006)

Mary Harney: I have total confidence in Professor Drumm and the management of the HSE. It is being suggested that this is a major scandal and somebody did something terribly wrong. That did not happen. If we had not changed the accounting system, we would not even be having this debate. As I stated, I was not asked many questions and people were not screaming in the Dáil last January when the health...

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