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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Yes, within Bus Éireann's remit. It reduced its costs by €8.5 million in 2011. There was an underspend.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: If costs were reduced by €8.5 million in one year and there was an Exchequer gain of €6.8 million in the same year, does that mean €15 million was not for one reason or another used in the school transport scheme that year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: We can dispute the reasons for it but there was a saving of €8.5 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: There was also an Exchequer gain of €6.8 million in 2011.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: The explanation is that if it were not for the Department's intervention and oversight of that scheme, the saving of €8.5 million might not have been achieved. In other words, that saving would probably not have been identified had the Department not raised the issue. Were there surplus funds in the scheme over many years or were there inefficiencies therein which caused money to be...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Mr. Foghlú cannot say that definitively because the scheme has not been put out to tender. I am not following the court case, which was mentioned by Deputy Donohoe. I am following the principle of spending €152 million of taxpayers' money and the additional €11.5 million in charges collected by Bus Éireann. The Department refuses to go to tender in respect of this...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I am asking Mr. Ó Foghlú about his concerns. We should get this straight. Some €105 million goes on contractors and their costs. That is my understanding of the figures in front of us. I would like the witness to tell me how confident he is about the quality of that tender process. That is my first question. It is €152 million involved in all this spend. Some...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I will return to the issue later.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Let us have in writing the overall breakdown for the different categories.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Can Mr. McCarthy come back to us on that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: He is asking a question and he does not know the answer to it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: It would be helpful for us to get a list of those schools that have not been completed where a contractor has gone out of business, including details of the bonds that were in place and whether they were subsequently retendered or what happened. The witnesses will be aware that Loreto school in Kilkenny is in the same circumstances and I would like to know about it. It is difficult to get...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I forgot to ask a question on school transport. Is Mr. Ó Foghlú aware of a termination agreement within the school transport agreement that should it be terminated, Bus Éireann would be paid in the region of €55 million?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I suggest to members in that regard that we leave Vote 26 open. Mr. Ó Foghlú has mentioned the value for money audit undertaken by his Department on the school transport scheme. We want to examine that audit. Mr. Ó Foghlú might let us have a copy of it. I know it is a public document on the Department's website.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: There are other documents related to this matter which the Department is going to send to the committee, including the documentation on the underlying agreement. We want the information on the way in which the amount Bus Éireann would have to be paid should the contract be wound up was arrived at. We will have the total information on who made the arrangement and how it was arrived at....

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I do not want to delay the meeting, but if it can be done quickly, it would be useful.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: The Minister will receive the report on Waterford Institute of Technology by the end of March. How soon thereafter will the committee receive it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Is that the three month period?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I also ask the Department to provide the detail of the business plan for capital works at the Institute of Technology Tallaght. What building programme was gone into and what was the business plan? Was the Department involved? The Department might also let us know about the monitoring of institutes of technology expenditure and accounting generally. Is there a unit in the Department to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Is that a new tendering process?

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