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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: What I said to the Deputy is correct. In the main the gains are re-invested. That is what property developers and property investment funds do. I take the Deputy's point that one can take a section of land out, use it in isolation and the exemption applies. He is correct to say so. We believe what we are doing is the right thing to do. We can go back and rehash and reargue last year's...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: Not in that circumstance.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: Sorry, excuse me-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: That is only for foreign investors.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: I do not know.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: Deputy Pearse Doherty said that 2013 was the bottom of the trough, and it was. I remind him that we needed foreign equity to come in to try to move the property market. The Deputy should not ignore where we were back then. He is simply taking the negative and suggesting that everything was perfect. We needed foreign funds to come in to the Irish residential property sector and the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: No. We have decided to change the structure – Deputy Pearse Doherty agrees with that. We have decided that, as a result of providing tax certainty, the measures will kick in 14 months from now. We believe it is important for a jurisdiction to have tax certainty. This means we should not change an aspect of the policy in one budget and then alter it subsequently. We do not believe...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: We did not know that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: It is very easy-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: I do not know the details.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: The expression used is that these are widely-held funds. They are institutional investors. It is not a question of a number of potentially high-worth individuals who are closely aligned with one another and that they are excluded. There are approximately 100 funds with a value of between €15 billion and €16 billion worth of property.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: There are approximately 100 widely-held IREFs in total. Approximately four or five funds have CGT exemption and they are widely held with institutional investors such as pension funds.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: Four or five of the 100 funds.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: Four or five currently have CGT exemption. We do not know the number of funds that will potentially benefit from the extra year.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: It is expected that the same four or five funds will benefit by 1 January 2019.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: The 100 IREFs will have €15 billion to €16 billion in total assets.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: The expectation is that will be approximately €3 billion to €4 billion.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: Yes. However, those are institutional-type widely held funds such as pension funds and so on. Pension funds are exempt from withholding tax anyway.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: No, we are. These are institutional investors. I want to say to Deputy Boyd Barrett that it is very easy to look back several years later and say we knew the market had bottomed out at that stage. Any members who were on the finance committee at that time, as some of those present were, know that we did not know the market was not going to continue falling. The Deputy said it could only...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2017)

Michael D'Arcy: The market could have continued to fall. It was the individuals who came in and invested at that stage who were taking a risk. Nobody knew the market was going to stabilise at a certain period-----

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