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Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: That would have come about, and there would have been a Labour Court recommendation. How would SIPTU then have got to the point whereby Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Kelly set up a bank account on foot of a Labour Court recommendation of which SIPTU was party? How would it have set that up in a vacuum?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: No, but it came on foot of a Labour Court recommendation. I have no doubt that ordinary people looking in will say this was set up out of a structure, namely, the Labour Court, which does a great deal of very good work. At that particular time, what position would Mr. Merrigan have occupied in SIPTU?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: He would have been senior management.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Mr. O'Flynn would have thought that any funding from the Department should have gone in directly to a skills programme-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: -----rather than to this particular vehicle.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Following on from that, this went on unabated for nearly 12 years. Looking at it, it was like a lucky dip in terms of dipping in for various items such as foreign travel and unaccountable stuff. I find the accounts produced - Mizars were the accountants - for the type of money that was going through this every year extraordinary. For instance, in 2011, nearly €700,000 went through...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Two people appeared to have enormous latitude to write cheques across a range of areas. Our role here is in terms of the taxpayer. Does it not defy logic that it ran on unchecked for so long?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Following on from that, I revert to the Grant Thornton report. It cost €76,000 and was paid for by SIPTU, the cost of which obviously would come out of its ordinary members' contributions. If that cost €200 per hour, which would be a relatively high charge, by my estimation that is approximately three months' work, which is a considerable amount of work on a report. I cannot...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I have read it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: The point I am making is the organisation appears to have been set up with no legal basis or standing. I would have thought that normally, when SIPTU sets up such levy funds, I assume within that it sets up a formal board of trustees or whatever to run those funds.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Mr. O'Flynn is making my point, which is-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Therefore, on that basis, how can Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Kelly - the former in particular - stand behind stating they are entitled as trustees? Is Mr. Merrigan actually a trustee at all? He appears to be going behind the structure that applies within the normal levy funds within the union system, which is set up by the branch members under standing orders as set down by the union. However,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: If that is the case, then Mr. O'Flynn should explain the reason SIPTU did not take ownership and possession of the Grant Thornton report. To be honest with Mr. O'Flynn, it is as though we are in a play that resembles Hamlet without the prince with regard to Mr. Merrigan. It is as though participants in this meeting are in the play "Hamlet" without actually having sight of 'Hamlet' the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Did SIPTU seek legal opinion or counsel opinion regarding its legal rights over the Grant Thornton report?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Then what has happened in this regard does a disservice to the unions, because I believe SIPTU does great work, as well as with regard to how taxpayers' money is spent. Moreover, there still is a vacuum here in respect of unanswered questions. We did not have the critical part of the report, which is the Grant Thornton report, or the main key players involved, including Mr. Merrigan in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Yes, and I appreciate that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I appreciate that and thank Mr. O'Flynn.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I have one question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I thank Mr. O'Flynn for appearing before us. How did it come about that Mr. Merrigan and Mr. Kelly were the ones who opened the bank account?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Surely they must have got a direction from someone at some level that the account should be opened.

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