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Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: I am glad to get the opportunity to put on record the success over the two years. We can always pick out exceptions but it is important to put on the record where we are coming from.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Can the clerk be given a view on that when the cases are fully decided, or an observation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: I have just three brief questions, which I will ask with the lenience of the Chair. I am glad to put my remarks on the record because people often take just one issue, which can have an impact on the perception of the success of the Department to date. I congratulate the witnesses on their success to date.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: My first question relates to the formal legal establishment of the IBRC on 1 July 2011. Can Ms Nolan please clarify the reference in submissions to the IBRC as having been in existence before 1 July 2011? Correspondence I have received implies it was in existence prior to that date.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Clarification is important. IBRC was formed on 1 July 2011 to take over the bad bank parts of Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: It was an essential part of a new policy initiative to wind down both banks. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Given that the core assignment for IBRC was to deal with the toxic loan portfolios of both of these banks, can the witnesses tell the committee what relationship framework measures were put in place to manage the Department of Finance and the new IBRC, which was quite different? One must remember the timeframe. On 1 January 2009, Anglo Irish Bank was put into State ownership. On 31 March,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: There is a huge difference.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: The information in the brief is adding to the storyline. I refer to the framework document, specifically regarding Irish Nationwide Building Society. These are all toxic debts in cases that were absolutely hopeless. Obviously, from 2009 up to that period, it was very much a loose arrangement, but from that date on, in the light of the scale of what was being taken over, was there much of a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Was there a record of it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: That leads to my second question which relates to the information flow between IBRC and the Department. The document with responses to questions posed to the Minister for Finance in preparation for today's meeting of the committee states the shareholding management unit, SMU, within the Department was responsible for managing the day-to-day relationship with IBRC and that the SMU had daily...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: On the point about the importance of the Minister being fully and regularly briefed on key operations and other decisions, did that happen?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: On that point, we are talking about a different framework and toxic loans. The witness said the framework document was different from the one prior to 2011. How different was it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: That is a contradiction because the witness said there was a different framework document in 2011 from that in place in 2009 when the Department took over the two.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: How is it that there was not a different framework document in the light of the fact that the Department was taking over Anglo Irish Bank and the other bad debts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: When the Department took over the toxic loans of the two other banks after the establishment of IBRC, I understood there were different criteria for the framework document from day one. Is the witness saying it did not operate from day one?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Why not?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: However, there were many transactions taking place in the meantime.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: The brief we received in reply to questions states the shareholding management unit in the Department was responsible for managing the day-to-day relationship with IBRC. The SMU had daily instructions with the senior management team in the bank on a wide variety of issues, including the bank's performance, progress in deleveraging and the various consent and consultation requests which...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Imagine.

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