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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: As there is a quorum, we will commence in public session. Are the minutes of the meeting of 6 December 2012 agreed? Agreed. On matters arising from the minutes, we will deal with the draft report on the HSE under item 6. The other issues referred to in the minutes relate to Dublin WaterWorld. There are two issues to be dealt with. First, the official response to our report on the VAT...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: I know that the secretariat tracks the letters we send and receive. It might do no harm to take stock over the Christmas period. The next item on our agenda is reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting on 6 December. No. 4.1 is the Department of Social and Family Affairs - social insurance fund - financial statements for the year ended 31 December 2011. No. 4.2 is the...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Obviously, the report on Uganda will be dealt with at the meeting next week. However, it is important that our findings in the visit to Mozambique be circulated to members because they will form part of the discussion with the Accounting Officer of the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery to turn off their mobile phones because they interfere with the sound quality of the transmission of the meeting. This applies particularly to those who leave their mobile phones on the desk in front of the microphone which picks up the noise which means the proceedings cannot be transmitted properly. We...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: I welcome the officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Ms Marie McLaughlin and Ms Annette Connolly. I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the chapters from his reports.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Thank you, Mr. McCarthy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: May we publish the statement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Will Mr. Murphy confirm the names of the six directors who were paid fees?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Does Mr. Murphy have it now?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: If she raises this with the Accounting Officer or, through him, the Minister, she might let us have a note on their views on the matter. It is a matter we will probably pursue again.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Will Ms McLaughlin send us a note on that explaining the timeframe for the review and who is involved in it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: We would like a detailed note on it so that we understand clearly what the review is about and who is conducting it. That would be a help to us.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Before calling Deputy Murphy, I wish to clarify a number of points arising from questions from Deputies Fleming and Donohoe. Mr. Murphy mentioned that the private sector had lost €60 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: The other figure of €219 million relates to PPPs that were abandoned or shelved. How much of that amount is lost to the State? Some projects have only been shelved and may be completed in time. As such, the money spent on them thus far may have been worthwhile. Separating those out, what is the loss to the State in this context?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Mr. Murphy cannot say whether any of that €219 million is recoverable?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: It did not happen on his watch.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: Can the departmental officials answer that question?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: I am interested in the €219 million which arises from projects abandoned or shelved. Mr. Murphy earlier gave us an estimate of €60 million lost to the private sector. However, when it comes to taxpayers' money, we do not even have a guesstimate of what has been lost to the State. Mr. Murphy says he cannot answer that question because the NDFA is not the procuring authority,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

John McGuinness: I am not here to guess. I am asking what is the exact amount lost to the State as a result of projects that were abandoned or shelved. From whom can I get that figure?

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