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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: I thank Ms Hayes. Before we commence the questions I ask members to ensure they are concise in their questions and I also ask witnesses to be concise in their replies. We have a packed committee this afternoon. I propose that the first round of questions will involve a 12 minute engagement that will then reduce to eight and five, accordingly. Both directors were appointed in 2008 by the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: What fees has each of the directors received since their appointment as public interest directors?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Okay. Since his appointment in December 2008 I understand Mr. MacSharry has attended approximately 30 board meetings and his payment is approximately €290,000. Since Ms Hayes was appointed in December 2008 she has attended approximately 30 board meetings as well and she has been paid approximately €210,000.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Since their appointment were the witnesses given any specific instructions or terms of reference on reporting or carrying out their tasks as public interest directors? Did the Minister, the Department of Finance or the Central Bank issue them with any terms of reference, instructions or reporting mechanisms?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Was it the same situation with Ms Hayes?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Since they were appointed in December 2008, have they on any occasion either formally or informally reported their activities as public interest directors to either the Minister for Finance, the Central Bank or the Department of Finance?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Could I call the meeting to order?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: What I am asking Mr. MacSharry is - I am trying to model this before other questioners come in - about his role. The bank would certainly have been meeting with the Central Bank and other agencies. In Mr. MacSharry's specific capacity as a public interest director - I am putting the same question to Ms Hayes - has he reported to the Minister for Finance, the Department of Finance or the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: In terms of being general directors.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: When Mr. Richard Boucher of the Bank of Ireland appeared before this committee a couple of months ago, a question was put to him as to what distinguished a public interest director from any other director on the board. Mr. Boucher's response was that they are not elected. That is the only difference. Under company law, every director of the bank has the same obligation, which is to serve...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: I have the terms of a non-executive director here in front of me.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: I am saying that there is no difference. According to Mr. Richie Boucher there is no difference-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: -----in company law between them.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Under company law there is no difference in terms of your duty of care, as I understand it. I can read into the record what the role of a non-executive director is for Mr. MacSharry. In terms of being a standard director, however, as I understand it-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Therefore, in that instance your master is the bank, not the public interest, because of company law.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: In this case, the shareholder.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Has there been an occasion during Mr. MacSharry's period when a vote was taken on the board where he, as a public interest director, had a particular position - whether it was to do with mortgage interest rates, and this morning we have seen a bank announcing an adjustment to its credit card rate - and pushed a public interest issue that has resulted in a vote?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Were those views every pushed to a vote?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Role and Contribution of Public Interest Directors in Financial Institutions: Discussion with Permanent TSB (19 Dec 2012)

Ciarán Lynch: Okay.

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