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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: I welcome the witnesses to the meeting. I wish to draw attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: I thank Ms Toner. Just before I go to Mr. Kennedy I want to mention something from the point of view of the committee. Mr. Courtney added more than was in his statement because we supplied him with the Departmental response and he took it further, which is fine. Following today's meeting a transcript of what Mr. Courtney said will be sent to the Department for its written response to the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Thank you. Finally, I invite Mr. O'Brien to make his presentation on behalf of IBEC.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Before I call on colleagues for their questions, I have a general question for Mr. Kennedy. The heads of the Bill have been published and there is a clear intention. Is there a timeliness to this being done? In other words, are there negative consequences from the Bill now that what is going to be done on defined benefit pensions has been flagged? IBEC set out a case on moving from a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Could that analysis be done? Should it be done? Would it be prudent, before introducing legislation, to have some indication of the costs for the companies that would be affected? Would that have been prudent and advisable?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Should that analysis has been done before something goes from voluntary to mandatory?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: It is a policy question because if something is unaffordable, the policy will not be implemented and there are negative consequences. I am looking at the process in terms of where we are going. Mr. Kennedy indicated there is a deficit totalling €3.5 billion. The system is changing from voluntary to mandatory schemes. I am trying to ascertain the capacity of schemes to address the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: My first question referred to the timeliness of the passing of the legislation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Mr. Courtney and Ms Toner spoke to the Department yesterday and the committee will get written clarification on the matter in question. They can see the willingness of the committee to resolve the issue. Let us see where we go from there from the point of view of the Department. The case was well put. In particular, it involves such a small and well-defined group. Will Mr. Kennedy...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Is it not part of the problem when a company bucks the trend and will not pay? The negative impact would be seen across a whole sector, which is a problem when it is a voluntary rather than mandatory process. It is a core issue as to how we deal with those companies who have not played ball or been co-operative; they will not pay rather than cannot pay. In a voluntary capacity, that is an...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Will Mr. Kennedy clarify a couple of very simple points? He mentioned that the origin of this legislation was the Department and not the authority. As an organisation, has the Pensions Authority ever proposed amendments or legislation?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Mr. Kennedy clearly indicated that if the legislation is passed, his role is to put these solutions in place irrespective of the ability to pay. He has made that point very clear, that it is not his role and not contained in the legislation. What is the Pensions Authority's view of the proposed scheme? The Pensions Authority did not ask for these regulations to be introduced. How does it...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: As a regulator, the Pensions Authority must have some view. Mr. Kennedy is clearly able to indicate the number of schemes, the decline of the schemes, and the risk here is that there is a move from a voluntary basis, and there are proposed amendments without any reference to ability to pay. I have made the point to Mr. O'Brien that companies with the ability to pay have walked away from...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: No problem.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Okay. Are there any additional questions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Before we conclude, I asked Mr. Kennedy a question at the outset. I am not trying to catch him or anything like that but I want to put it as simply and directly as possible. I asked him whether there was an issue around the timeliness of this legislation. My concern is there is something of a conflict, in that the cost of business has not been analysed. It has come across both from Mr....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: I thank Mr. Kennedy and call Deputy Brady.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: Just before that is answered, Deputy Kenny had a point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: I will intervene in a bid to help Deputy Kenny, as he missed the start of the meeting. This committee previously received a written submission from Mr. Courtney which we sent on to the Department. We got a response which we then sent to Mr. Courtney. Yesterday, Mr. Courtney rang the Department and discussed this issue. We as a committee will get a written response from the Department...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Pension Schemes: Discussion (15 Jun 2017)

John Curran: That concludes the questions unless any of the witnesses would like to make further comments. I know that some of them have not been addressed directly but they are free to make a comment if they wish to do so.