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Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: Does Mr. Murphy know from where the figure of €105 million came?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Murphy is here because he advises on the financing of PPPs. His agency is the State's adviser on the costing, financing and procurement of PPPs. It is involved in this process. A precise figure is set out for an exact number of projects. The NDFA is the sole State agency in a position to set out a figure, but Mr. Murphy saying €105 million is not his figure.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: In the context of the stimulus package, does the agency take a view on whether building 20 primary care centres in two packages of ten constitutes a good package for the market? I accept that Mr. Murphy may be unable to answer this question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: The agency notes that the package involves raising €1.4 billion for investment in public infrastructure and public private partnership investment projects with the European Investment Bank. The NDFA is the most knowledgeable of all State agencies about markets, costs and tendering. Primary care provision is one aspect of the overall €1.4 billion package which I happened to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: I would have thought the agency was best placed to advise the Government on the possible costs of PPPs. I ask the officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform how such a cost can be arrived at if the State agency with the most knowledge of procurement and tendering for PPPs played no role in calculating the figure of €1.4 billion that the Minister for Public...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: Would it not have made sense for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to touch base with the NDFA, as the agency solely charged with advising on the operation, implementation, tendering and managing PPPs? Should it not ask the agency to validate the Departments' figures?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: After the fact. What about before the figure of €1.4 billion appeared in the press release? People take such figures seriously when a Minister announces them. I would have assumed that each Department ran its figures by the agency for advice on whether the proposed projects would attract PPP funding. Two packages of ten primary care centres were costed as part of the package, but...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: Essentially, was the figure of €105 million for the primary care units produced by the Department of Health?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: I will conclude with the observation -----

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: I have no problem with primary care centres if they go that route. I have no objection in principle to that. All I am saying is that if the €105 million for the 20 primary care centres has come from the Department of Health, that is not a figure it can stand over. The Department has not produced a figure it can stand over in the past two years and I put the figure of €105...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: Will it begin next year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: Fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: What I am saying about people's experience gels with that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: This is my final point. The NDFA has signed a number of contracts and I have an important question to ask in the public interest in that regard. What measures does the NDFA take to ensure publicly-funded contracts are completed in accordance with the registered employment agreements, REA, tax and social welfare obligations and health and safety rules? What does the NDFA do to ensure that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: That is nonsense. It counts for nothing on a construction site to say the guys in head office have conducted a due diligence process. I am talking about a construction site for any project. The site might have 100 people, some of whom are on the dole, some of whom are not paid the REA rate and some of whom are not tax compliant. I have not mentioned unpaid sub-contractors and annual...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: I will answer about one specific project, one of the NDFA's flagship projects, a beautiful school completed in Portlaoise and two in Offaly. For the duration of that construction contract, some workers used to arrive in their good clothes every Thursday morning to be brought by bus to the North by the subcontractor to collect their social welfare. I have said this on the public record in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: I know.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: In response to the parliamentary question I mentioned earlier, the Minister said that "when a contract is awarded, the public authority must .... notify NERA and provide it with a copy of the form". He went on to say that "a dedicated email address" has been established in this regard and that "35 notifications have been provided to NERA to date [this year, presumably]". The number of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: Is Mr. Burgess saying that the NDFA will do this or is currently doing so?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Burgess said that the main contractor was required to certify that a sub-contractor had been paid. However, the problem arises where a sub-contractor engages another sub-contractor and so on. I suggest there is a need for a mechanism which ensures that any person who enters a site, whether that person is a contractor, a sub-contractor or anybody else, must supply his or her PPS number....

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