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Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Does Mr. McKeon think that the actions of the Government and the Department are undermining the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner? Many people would be of that opinion.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I refer to the Department's business case. In Mr. McKeon's statement he said a single business case document would have been preferable. At a hearing of the Committee of Public Accounts just last September the Comptroller and Auditor General said that would be a fundamental requirement for something of this scale and nature. In the document with which we have been furnished, Mr. McKeon has...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Would Mr. McKeon consider it a serious omission?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Would Mr. McKeon agree with the Comptroller and Auditor General's assertion that it is a fundamental requirement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I am not talking about that period. I am talking about the past three, four or five years.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I refer to the latter part of the programme; the public services card and the concerns the Data Protection Commissioner has flagged. The Department did not draw up a thorough business case. Mr. McKeon has said it was not a requirement back in the day, but the Department would have been aware that it was a fundamental requirement to justify anything of this scale and type, as the Comptroller...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: They were not in place though. That is the point; two were not in place and five were only partially covered.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: I think Mr. McKeon agrees that not doing it thoroughly was a serious omission.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: No one is questioning their professionalism. I am saying that the lack of a business case was a serious omission. Two elements were not even looked at and five others were just partially covered. There was a certain amount of carelessness for a project of this scale and type.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: This is standard practice. People would expect this sort of thing to be adhered to in a thorough manner for a project of this scale and nature. Not doing that was a serious omission.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: In responding to Deputy Connolly Mr. McKeon said it took time to evaluate the benefits. Is he saying there really is no point in including it in any business case at this stage? Is he saying it really is a non-requirement because he regards it as better to evaluate the benefits after a period of time?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Mr. McKeon spoke about the assessment of organisational capacity to undertake the project. There are then the findings of the Data Protection Commissioner which the Department has chosen to ignore, having dismissed her rulings out of hand. An assessment of organisational capacity to undertake the project was never carried out. Now the Data Protection Commissioner says the Department is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Has the Attorney General actually furnished Mr. McKeon with an opinion that the Data Protection Commissioner is wrong that the Department has no legal basis on which to retain data for purposes other than those of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Mr. McKeon has told us that that was the justification and said that was from where he had taken his advice from the Attorney General. Did the Attorney General say it was not wrong to retain data?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: No, Mr. McKeon is disputing everything the Data Protection Commissioner has said on the grounds that the Attorney General told him the complete opposite. Therefore, even if he will not say it, the only assumption at which one can arrive is that the Attorney General told the Department that it was legally within its rights to retain the information.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Otherwise, the Department would have complied with what the Data Protection Commissioner had requested. She said the Department was in breach of the law. Many others also take the view that the Department is breaking the law by illegally retaining data.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Will the Department challenge it on the basis of the Attorney General's advice?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: To be clear, the reason the Department has not complied with the Data Protection Commissioner's ruling when she flagged that it was in breach of the law is the advice it received from the Attorney General?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Therefore, that is the reason. Based on the advice of the Attorney General, the Department has ignored and been non-compliant with the Data Protection Commissioner's ruling. Is that the case - "Yes" or "No"?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Employment Affairs and Social Protection
Chapter 12 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 13 - Timeliness of Income Support Claim Processing
Chapter 14 - Customer Service - Development of Income Support Application Forms
(7 Nov 2019)

Imelda Munster: Then it is based on that advice.

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