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National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: I will just finish on this. In such cases, the level of complexity at a corporate level would be far in excess of what we see in the number of documents we have now.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: If we were building on public land, by definition, there would be no lease.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: It is.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: It was for the same reason we all wanted that. Look at the debate we are having. People have very understandable concerns. None of us is expected to walk around knowing the difference between rent, leasehold ownership and freehold ownership. People are not expected to know that apartments are typically bought under leasehold ownership whereas houses tend to be bought under freehold ownership.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: It is a fair question but I disagree with the Deputy's characterisation. I am open to correction if the record shows otherwise but I believe my position, which I have stated very freely on many occasions, has always been that I would prefer public ownership and to own the freehold. The Minister, Deputy Harris, and I both asked for that.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: If I may finish, I am open to correction but I do not believe that I ever asked why the Deputy was asking his questions. We have been having a very open debate. The Deputy and many of our colleagues here are asking the exact same questions I asked. I acknowledge the questions he is asking are absolutely legitimate.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: This probably goes back to something we were discussing at the committee meeting yesterday. For historical reasons, there is a very understandable and deep mistrust in our country. Any complexity in a proposal such as this can therefore add to the concerns people have. We want this to be as clear and as clean as possible. For the reasons we have all been debating for the past two weeks,...

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: I am not a lawyer. The advice I have received previously is that Oireachtas debate does have some legal standing and that, when the courts are seeking to interpret things, people can refer back to the Oireachtas debate. I am not a lawyer, so I would prefer not to make a definitive statement on this.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: As we discussed yesterday, first, what we can take as a given is that it has been clearly established through Oireachtas debate that the term “clinically appropriate” will absolutely not apply to healthcare services being withheld from women, and I think that is the genuine concern people have. Second, I do not know if the health committee accepts it, but I am absolutely...

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: I am answering it. Third, as per yesterday, I am not ruling anything out. I really want to listen to and be involved in the entire debate and to reflect on that.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: I do not speak for it, obviously, only for myself. It is clear. When any of us say we are not ruling anything out, I think that is-----

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: We are not foreseeing any major changes in terms of documents that would-----

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: Can I answer the question, please? We are not foreseeing any major changes but, at this point, and including, as the Deputy said, the constitution, I would not rule anything out. However, the debate has not finished. We are still in the middle of it, so we are still very much in listening mode and then we need to reflect on the totality of it.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: Yes.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: At this point, I cannot say either way. We are still in the middle of these debates.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: The debate is going on.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: I do not know about the Deputy but I found the health committee genuinely very useful yesterday so-----

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: What I am saying is that I think it is highly unlikely there would be talks requiring substantive change to the legal documents but, at this point, we are still listening to the debate and I am not ruling anything out.

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: It is-----

National Maternity Hospital: Statements (12 May 2022)

Stephen Donnelly: It is a charitable company.

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