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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: I thank Mr. McMahon and Mr. Cahalan from FBD for their presentations. I now invite Senator O'Donnell to put his questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: I thank our witnesses for coming before us. It is quite helpful to have an actual industry player before us because usually it is Insurance Ireland that appears before us and it usually has to defer back and say it is just here as a representative body but is not on the ground doing the claims, so it is good that FBD is here. We heard a lot this morning from the community groups, especially...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: Of all the claims coming in, 40%-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: Does Mr. Cahalan have a breakdown between them? Sometimes an insurance policy says someone is covered for one thing and he or she is claiming for something else. Is there a breakdown of that 40% that might give us some information? Does some of it involve FBD discovering that a person who says he or she is very injured is on Facebook doing rock climbing or mixed martial arts?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: There is a difference between something not being covered because the policy rules say one thing and blatant fraud. Does Mr. Cahalan have a figure for blatant fraud?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: Of the 40%-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: So FBD captures 20% and Mr. Cahalan reckons it does not get another 20%?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: I do not want to be overly mathematical about it but is it 10%?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: FBD is catching 20% and there is another 10% it is not getting. Mr. Cahalan thinks that half of the 40% of cases FBD rejects involve fraud?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: I am still trying to get a handle on that 40% because some of it involves technical rejections. Sometimes people realise they were not insured for water damage or some kind of act of God. Of that 40%, has Mr. Cahalan a breakdown as to how many of those cases are rejected because FBD knows they are trying it on?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: I will come on to some of that stuff. I am just trying to get my head around this 40%. If Mr. Cahalan is saying that 20% of the total is fraudulent, 10% of it is in the 60% and 10% of it is in the 40%. That is what I think he is saying. What is in the rest of the 30% that is rejected for other reasons if it is not fraud?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: In terms of motor insurance in FBD, what is the breakdown - the percentage payouts - in respect of personal injury versus material damage?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: May I still ask questions from the Chair?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: I am multitasking. The Minister of State is to appear before us on Tuesday. The delegates have been working with him on the cost of insurance working group and so on. My question was on the costs associated with material damages and personal injuries from a car accident. Legal fees are part of the total bill but there are also material damages and personal injuries. What is the breakdown?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: Has Mr. Cahalan a figure for the motor sector?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: We were hearing at some stage that, industry wide, 8% of costs was attributable to material damage and 92% was attributable to personal injuries. People with little scratches on their car were putting in claims because they had four children who were not able to sleep at night and that there was mental trauma. Maybe that is the case-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: If Mr. Cahalan has the figures and is happy to submit them to us, we would appreciate them as a committee because we want to go back to the Minister of State and give a reason. I take the point totally on low prices and low claim payouts, and on high prices and high claim payouts. The circle has to squared, or whatever way one wants to put it. However, most of us drive the same car and do...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: When consumers go from paying €290 to €600 or €700 over a relatively short period, although driving the same car with the same claims history, and not having made a claim, they feel aggrieved.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: The Minister of State will come in next week. We had many motor insurance modules in the earlier part of this committee's proceedings in 2016. We published a report in late 2016. We value the fact that FBD is the only indigenous company in the motor insurance market. The rest are owned by multinationals. They are welcome as we need competition. Is it correct that FBD is the only Irish...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Insurance Costs for Community Groups: Discussion (24 May 2018)

Gerry Horkan: We probably all are. The Minister of State is coming in to us next Tuesday to discuss insurance costs generally. Has the delegation anything it wants us to put to him or to tease out with him regarding where we go next? The delegates have their points on strengthening the PIAB, personal injuries compensation and improved data sharing. If they were the Minister in the morning, what would...

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