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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: I could not comment on my former profession and the value for money it offers. We are very fortunate to have the C and AG, however.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: First, the Revenue Commissioners will implement Government policy. If, therefore, the Government makes a decision to expand the role of the Revenue Commissioners and provides a legislative basis for that and clarity on exactly what the role is, the Deputy can be sure they will take on that role. I think the Deputy is right. We can also be assured that they will do a very good job and be...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: The Revenue Commissioners will faithfully implement Government policy. We have a duty to ensure that we give them tasks that are appropriate to what they do and to their mandate and structure. Their core purpose is to collect tax.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: I have not had any concerns raised by the Revenue Commissioners with my office. Our focus has been to ensure that they have sufficient resources to carry out their functions, including in respect of customs and they do that work to a very high standard. I do not, therefore, have any concerns with regard to their ability to continue to fulfil those obligations. Obviously, however, Brexit...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: I thank the Deputy. The Tax Appeals Commission is a very important body and is crucial to the fair administration of our tax system. Perhaps I can bring the Deputy up to date and share some additional information. As of the end of 2023, the commission had 1,139 appeals on hand. That is a 24% reduction in the number on hand at the end of 2022. Despite an additional 1,156 appeals being...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: In terms of the number of staff working within the Tax Appeals Commission, at the end of 2023, it was 32 and the financial estimate for 2024 provides for 37 staff. We are, therefore, seeing an ongoing increase in the staffing resources for the TAC. Sanction was granted to the TAC in 2020 for additional posts, which increased the target numbers to 35. Significant recruitment took place in...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: It is a fair point. I will commit to a note to the committee on the Tax Appeals Commission in terms of the different qualifications and backgrounds broadly-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: -----of the staff and an up-to-date accurate figure in terms of the value of tax in dispute currently before the TAC.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: I thank the Deputy. Again I acknowledge that the change in the subheads has created a challenge for comparing on a like-for-like basis. To clarify, the €100,000 she refers to under the administrative budget for non-pay, under VII, relates to the internal corporate office within the Department. It pertains to consultancy costs associated with the running of the Department, rather...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: What year was that for?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: Is that from a parliamentary question, Deputy?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: I think that is not under Vote 7. It almost certainly comes under the Vote of a body under the aegis of the Department, which would not be one of the Votes here. We can clarify it. The Deputy's note does not separate it out by body, does it?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: What body is listed above the Oliver Wyman figure?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: It is not the Department of Finance, so it must be one of the bodies under the aegis of the Department. It could be the NTMA, the Central Bank - we will check that out. It is not within our Vote.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: We as a Department actually publish our spend on consultants. For 2023, the full detail of that will be published. I think it is important that while we try to keep the spend on consultancy to a minimum and that should always be the objective, there will be occasions where expert advice is needed on specific public policy issues. I take the broader point about building up the capacity...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: Yes we do, through the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service. They provide internship opportunities.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: I can assure the Deputy, having been in this Department for just over a year, the quality of the recruits we are bringing on board is really high. I am very satisfied with the qualifications and talent of the people who are coming in. The Department of Finance is the primary client for an administrative officer, AO, graduate competition. We have a graduate competition that we run. It is...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: I do not know offhand. We will revert to the Deputy.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: The Deputy is absolutely right; it is a challenge. There is a battle for talent in all sectors. The public service, including the Civil Service, has to compete. The State is a good employer and the Civil Service is a very good employer. I see the life-long learning opportunities, educational opportunities and career progression prospects, and the ability to rotate in various parts of a...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(24 Jan 2024)

Michael McGrath: I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh. Commercial State bodies have a different construct. They have a different relationship with the State. They have their own boards and fiduciary duties. They would have their own external auditors. It would require a change in the legislation to extend the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General to such bodies. Other governance and legal issues would...

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