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Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: Does Mr. Mulvany expect it to be within that budget of €82 million?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: In the 2020 procurement review, the HSE reported 91% procurement compliance but of course that encompassed the emergency procurement measures that were allowable as a result of the pandemic. What proportion of that 91% fell under emergency measures?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: We are told that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform raised concerns that some €1.25 billion that was spent by the HSE and had not been competitively procured could expose the State to legal action because it fell short of what was required under domestic and EU law. Do we have any sense of how many legal challenges are ongoing with regard to our procurement process?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: I will go back to Mr. Reid, if I may, a Chathaoirligh. There is a distinction then - we can hear this in the CFO's responses - between being non-compliant and being non-competitive, and that presents a number of particular challenges. When you are in a process that is non-competitive, I think there is a need for additional diligence, even when we are in the midst of an emergency. We know...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: I know. With due respect, I asked Mr. Reid whether or not any of that €81 million has been recouped. We accept the context.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: That was a very long time to get that specific answer, and I am trying to be specific in my questions. Were any of the companies involved used by the HSE before or engaged with before? Is this the first-----

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: There is an internal HSE document that identified risks with one particular vendor. In fact, of the nine parameters, three were deemed high-risk and there was a note in the document - this is prior to purchase - that there was a risk that expenditure of this magnitude would be wasted and that there were concerns about the quality of the machines. Did the HSE go to the effort of compiling a...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: Are any of the HSE guests aware of that case, involving Roqu? That internal document was widely reported. Is anybody aware of the specifics?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: Okay. I move on to hand sanitisers. We know the case of Viropro. We know there were some basic red flags. The material safety data sheet the HSE requested and received did not match what was on the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine's biological register. In another case, the vendor had not provided a number of the product on the register; rather, it gave an application...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: The HSE had already purchased the-----

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: I go back to the previous point where it was mentioned we could not get a response with regard to Roqu because of legal issues. No legal papers have been served yet. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: Is it commercial or legal?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: To clarify what my question was, I outlined what the HSE document identified with regard to this vendor and asked whether the HSE was aware of the internal document outlining that there was a risk that an expenditure of this magnitude would be wasted but continued with the purchase nevertheless. I do not think that would interfere would legal or commercial complexities.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: So the witnesses will not answer my question.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: I accept all of that. What I am asking is that if the internal report-----

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: -----indicates that this has been-----

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: I just want to go back to the issue of the ventilators. Out of interest, how many of the ten suppliers from China were actually Irish?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: Of the ten suppliers from China, were any of them Irish companies?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statement 2020 and Related Matters: HSE (16 Sep 2021)

Matt Carthy: Were they conducted through Irish entities?

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