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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: We understand the Revenue does not have the legal basis to do it now but maybe there should be a legal basis. I am sorry for butting in but I envisage that down the road, the Oireachtas could take a different view on a sunset clause on trading losses brought forward versus capital investment. They might take a different view of a different sunset clause period if they were minded to do that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Oireachtas would have to pass legislation on the blind with no basis for knowing what will happen when it passes and see what it throws up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: A rule would have to be introduced-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: -----based on the previous losses first.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Is Mr. Cody saying our recommendation is a legislative one?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Okay. I take his point.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: They are all loss-making businesses.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: How is the survey done? Do those taking the survey walk the street, make phone calls or go to shops?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Of those, 13% own up to Ipsos MRBI.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: They get a pack back to keep those people happy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: I will put some questions myself and then conclude. If the bells ring, I will just get through my questions with a view to finishing the meeting. If another member arrives that will be that. Not being a smoker myself, I do not normally concentrate on this end of things. According to the figures the witnesses say are based on the 2017 survey, the nominal loss to the Exchequer in 2017 was...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Who is the prosecution? Does Revenue or the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, carry it out?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: What is the biggest single fine that has been levied by the courts as a result of Revenue's prosecutions?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Cody can send a note with this information to the committee.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: The witnesses have said organised crime elements are involved in this. Out of all the activities that make money through organised crime, a culprit's chances of going to prison are probably the lowest for this one. As has been said, serious criminals are involved in this. They would laugh out loud at suspended sentences like that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: A guy caught with a bit of green diesel in the tank of his tractor or car gets a bigger fine than that. Those guys are charged €5,000 or €2,500. That is wrong too. I am not condoning it. I am just saying that the proportional difference between the fines and the gains here is extraordinary. Revenue probably cannot change that, but I find the figures extraordinary.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: They are not the real problem.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: However, Revenue does catch the guys that come in white vans loaded to the gills from Lithuania and other countries.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: Somebody is not taking it very seriously. I am not saying that about Revenue. Maybe it is only money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 17: Revenue's Progress in Tackling Tobacco Smuggling
Chapter 18: Management of High Wealth Individuals' Tax Liabilities
Chapter 19: Corporation Tax Losses
(15 Nov 2018)

Seán Fleming: There is minimal deterrent for being involved in this trade, though Revenue may get a couple of big people in some cases. When drugs or tobacco are seized in customs operations at Portlaoise mail centre, how do the Revenue Commissioners dispose of them? Are they incinerated?

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