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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: I thank the Deputy. I understand that Deputies Jim O'Callaghan and Barry are not available even though they have put down their names. Would the Minister be able to give us the figures on the bank bailout and the money that has been refunded?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: Yes. We bailed out the banks. How much of that money have we got back from each of the banks?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: The Minister might send it on to us.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: A sum of €370,000 was allocated to the banking division in 2023 for various consultancy projects related to SME finance crisis simulation and general banking research. Would any of that banking research be of value to the committee given that we deal with the banks on a regular basis? I refer in particular to information the Minister might have regarding community banking.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: Will the Minister be able to give us figures on that?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: Will the amount of money that we put into the banks be recouped in full? The Minister might include that in the figures he gives us. He is saying that €21.1 billion was recovered and then he referred to the value of the shares in the banks. What I am trying to establish is, out of the amount of money that we gave them during the crash, how much of that money, forgetting the shares,...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: But those shares have nothing to do with the overall amount that was given to the bank. We gave the three banks €29.4 billion.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: And forgetting the value of the shares -----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: It is that analysis or that up-to-date picture that I was looking for. I am quite happy to wait until the Minister sends us on those exact figures.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: Returning to the second question about money allocated for consultancy to the SME finance and banking research, was any work done on the public banking model, such as Sparkassen bank? I know a report was made available previously but efforts continue to bring competition to the market and I feel that community banking is one such model that might work here.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: It is included in the programme for Government, is it not, that we would look at the structure and see if it was possible to create that type of market here even if we were to use the credit unions? Again, it is something that we can come back to.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: Okay. The shareholding and financial advisory division, SFAD, allocation is to cover the cost of the restructure of the banking system related to litigation which remains ongoing. What litigation? Is it to do with Anglo, IBRC or what?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: Okay. On page 23 of 33 there is a big increase in the motor vehicles and equipment maintenance figures. In 2022, it was €5,375,000 of an outturn. By 2023, it has allocated €11,562,000.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: Okay. That is fine. Has Revenue sufficient numbers to monitor what is going on between the North and South of the island, such as in relation to the illegal importing of coal? I asked that of the Chairman of Revenue. It is causing problems for a lot of the coal merchants who are under pressure anyway. I wondered how many prosecutions there have been of those trading illegally in this...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: Finally, I said this to Deputy Donohoe when he was Minister for Finance and I want to say the same to the Minister in relation to his meetings with the banks. EBS tied agents is something that arises here regularly. I understand that mediation is ongoing there but they are not making that much ground, I am told. I would hope the Minister would encourage the Minister to use every process...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: I appreciate that the Minister cannot intervene on any of those issues. It is to keep them on the agenda.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: And to let them know that the Government is anxious that they would conclude on these issues as soon as possible.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: I would appreciate if the Minster would. We are joined by officials from the office of EU Commissioner, Mairead McGuinness. They are all very welcome. I tried to keep it going as long as I could because I knew they were coming but the Minister was too efficient and had the figures at the top of his head and easily able to answer. So I am sorry that we are coming to conclude the meeting...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised)
Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised)
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised)
Vote 10 - Tax Appeals Commission (Revised)
(15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: They should keep the Minister on his toes when he goes over there, just to keep him sharp and alert.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Message to Dáil (15 Feb 2023)

John McGuinness: In accordance with Standing Order 101, the following message will be sent to the Dáil: The Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach has completed its consideration of the Revised Estimates for public services for the year ending 31 December 2023: Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance; Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General; Vote...

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