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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on Sláintecare Reforms (27 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: Maybe Mr. Gloster will respond to the issues raised by Deputy Durkan.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on Sláintecare Reforms (27 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: I will be very brief. I will not be taking ten minutes, only two or three minutes. I want to get clarity on the cost overrun. I listened to what Mr. Gloster said. He said there are three elements to it. One is health inflation running at between 17% and 20%. There is the rising pay, demographics and all of those issues, and there is also the additional demand, which Mr. Gloster has said...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on Sláintecare Reforms (27 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: The existing levels of service, ELS, for next year could also require an additional €1 billion, so we could be talking about the need for €2.4 billion in additional expenditure to be provided to health, even before any new measures are funded. Would that be right?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on Sláintecare Reforms (27 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: But it could be in that space.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on Sláintecare Reforms (27 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: I have one final question.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on Sláintecare Reforms (27 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: Have we underfunded ELS for the last number of years? Is that part of the problem?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on Sláintecare Reforms (27 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: That answers my questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on Sláintecare Reforms (27 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: I will come back on a second round. To say I am not happy with the Secretary General's response is an understatement. It is also quite mind-blowing that it is a figure of €1.1 billion. That is a huge amount of money for an overspend that will now have to be found. I assume it will have to go into the base now in health and that will cause problems for everybody. I will come back...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: It is important for us to appreciate the scale of the overall failures that families and children feel in relation to a litany of issues. We are discussing here today the issues of the use of springs and non-medical grade devices and all of the issues that arise in relation to the post-surgical complications and infections but we must bear in mind as well that there have been years of broken...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: Does Ms Hardiman accept that CHI should have no role?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: Some would say the HSE should not be involved either. Maybe it should be the Department. In any event, I want to be clear that Ms Hardiman is agreeing that CHI should have no role whatsoever in crafting the terms of reference.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: At the heart of this current tragedy, if I may call it that, are two issues, and scandal. The first is the use of these non-medical grade springs. We have had some discussion on it. We must wait for this current review, which is under way, and that might answer questions on procurement. Ms Hardiman is adamant that neither she nor anybody else, other than, I assume, the people who used...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: I will ask Dr. Goldman then. Is the lack of ICU capacity in Temple Street potentially one of the reasons?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: So it is possible.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: No. This is what I am asking, to be clear. We have reports published which cite very high and, it has been argued, unusual levels of post-theatre complications and infections. Is that not what is being examined here?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: Exactly. I am asking if it is possible that a lack of ICU capacity was in some way part of the problem here.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: Okay. Dr. Goldman says, "No."

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: I have a very short time. My other points are in relation to the volume about which I asked earlier. Is the volume of work that was done by some of these surgeons maybe part of the problem? Most crucially, is it possible that the main reason or one of the real reasons we had so many complications and returns to surgery is because of the length of time that those children were waiting? Is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: I will leave it at that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Spinal Surgery Issues at Children's University Hospital Temple Street: Children's Health Ireland (28 Sep 2023)

David Cullinane: So what does Dr. Goldman think happened?

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