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Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Business of Select Sub-Committee (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: Yes. I understand there is an arrangement for a sos and to come back in the afternoon and evening. I am fine with that and I am at the select sub-committee's disposal.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: This arises in the context of a recent High Court case. The social welfare system has a practice of appeals officers revising decisions in a particular set of circumstances. There are approximately 2 million applications per year to the Department for a whole range of benefits. When the appeals process has been exhausted but where circumstances have changed, the Department allows a fresh...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: The Deputy's assumptions about the practices are correct. As the Deputy is aware, people are better off doing a review than going to appeals, but with the improvements in technology, everybody has seen a very significant improvement in processing. Having the right to make a fresh application for a change of circumstances is a valuable right and is the right thing to do in many cases. With...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: First, in regard to Waterford Crystal, the point is that the Waterford Crystal case has been addressed by the European Court and the workers have won their case. The applicants in the case have the matter before the Irish courts and the Irish courts are proceeding to address the matter. The point is that the Waterford Crystal workers' situation is covered by the court judgment they received...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: It could be but he has also made a reference to general funds. The point is that in the context of the new levy, that funding has been put in place, and that is a good measure.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: I appreciate the sentiments and motives behind the amendments. Very serious consideration was given during the deliberations on these issues in the past few years to imposing a statutory obligation on employers, which the amendments suggest. Defined benefit pension schemes in Ireland are set up and maintained by employers on a voluntary basis. There has never been a statutory obligation on...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: I must return to the point I made on Second Stage, namely, that the crisis in pensions is caused by two factors. The first of these is the change in life expectancy we have seen in recent decades. When pension funds were originally set up, people did not live very long after retirement. Happily, people are now living for far longer, with most of them being far healthier in retirement. The...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: Deputy Daly is saying she wants a deterrent. The problem is whether the deterrent will incentivise companies to close their pension schemes. Deputy Daly must be conscious of that. She referred to a couple of State bodies, but they are less likely to wind up. Incidentally, with regard to the ESB, I made it clear from the start that in respect of pensions legislation and the Pensions Board,...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: There is a globalisation fund.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: No.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: Yes; that is a risk.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: In my view, the introduction of a supplementary national pension scheme would solve many of the problems we are discussing. I hope we will be able to afford that, from an economic perspective, in the not too distant future. I envisage that employers, employees and the State, perhaps via taxation, would contribute to such a scheme. Such a scheme has been built up over a period of time in...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: For the first time.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: I thank the Deputies for their contributions. The Bill seeks to provide a floor of €12,000 for existing pensioners. If the pension fund is on its way, with the assistance of the Pensions Board, to sorting out its problems, existing pensioners, active and deferred members will not be affected once we get the scheme back towards solvency. That is an important point to make. The...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: Deputy O'Dea took it from the top in addressing the industrial relations machinery of the State. This is pensions legislation and my remit is limited to that. I have heard what Deputies O'Dea and Daly have said in that pensions are a key part of industrial relations issues for companies and workers. From a pensions legislation perspective, I can send a copy of my note to people. There are...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: We do not index link the State retirement pension but what we do is an annual review via the budgetary mechanism. What I would have to do in this case is go back to Government if a situation such as that described by Deputy O’Dea arose. Currently, the median pension is €11,000 and the floor of €12,000 is above that. I will undertake to go back to Government if that...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: As I said to Deputy O'Dea before the break, I would envisage that reviewing the figures would mean going back to Government. I am certainly happy to undertake that. Any time a significant issues related to pensions arises, which is an important issue in society and the wider economy, I would normally bring it to Government. I can certainly undertake to do so. There are two social welfare...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: The Deputy has asked that we update the guidance. We are doing that. As I said earlier, it should take effect some time in the first part of the new year. Much of the work is underway at present.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: We had a brief discussion on this issue this morning. Revenue from the 0.15% levy which will apply in 2013 and 2014 as referenced in the budget will be used to fund the jobs initiative, including the reduced 9% VAT rate for the hospitality sector, and to provide for potential State liabilities which may emerge from pre-existing or future pension fund difficulties. That is what was said by...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Joan Burton: The Deputy is correct. To some extent there may be an element of intergenerational solidarity because by and large the people in the defined-contribution schemes are younger on average than people in defined-benefit schemes because many defined-benefit schemes have been closed to new entrants for a significant period of time. The only other example, I suppose, is the public service, which,...

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