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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: When Mr. Moloney considers the person holding the post in the Civil Service or in the public service who is about to be seconded to a university, what would he look at in terms of that sanction? Is it as broad as what he has just said and that is it? Does he consider the knock-on effects of that person departing their role, will that person be paid by the Department or by the university and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: The example is obvious. The reason we are having this discussion today is because of the arrangement that was being made with Trinity College.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Is it fair to say Mr. Moloney, as the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, you knew nothing about this prior to the request for sanctioning having been made by the Department of Health?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Was Mr. Moloney in any way alarmed by the initial suggestion of the secondment, the salary and the other financial attachments to that position?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: There was no engagement.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Yes. There was no engagement prior that and what about after 31 March?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Three weeks after 31 March. Therefore, nothing happened in that three-week period.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: From Mr. Moloney's knowledge of it, it was not something that came across his radar. Was it dealt with by the section?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: There was a lack of engagement on the funding aspect.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: It is clear that now we know there was a lack of engagement regarding the funding arrangements.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Mr. Moloney just said there was a lack of engagement on the funding arrangements-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: -----so there was no funding arrangement, no funding proposal.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Yes but that funding arrangement would be part of the consideration in terms of the secondment, I presume.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Funding issues of five years at €2 million or of five years the cost of a salary or more, or for a longer period of time, must surely have been an issue somewhere. Correct me if I am wrong but-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: No one ever proposed that. That is fine. We can leave it at that. In terms of anyone going on secondment to the Civil Service or public service, does that person's salary continue to be paid by either the parent Department or by the Department itself if the person is a Secretary General?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: While they are being paid for by the universities, they are also being paid for, in some of the cases, by the Department of Education.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Would it be the case that any of the Secretaries General who are on secondment would continue to be paid by the Departments they are leaving? In other words, they would go to the university-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: They leave and there is no further cost on the relevant Department as far as they are concerned. It comes out of the Department of Education's budget. Is that the same level of salary?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: If, therefore, I am on a certain salary when I go on secondment, I will continue to get paid that same level of salary.

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