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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: This was a special meeting and the minutes would have been adopted. Was Mr. Conlan at it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Yet there was no discussion about this payment. There was a meeting on 10 June. Was Mr. Conlan at that meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: According to the documentation provided to us by the HSE the board of the CRC unanimously approved Mr. Conlan’s appointment. Was he there?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Was he still in the room?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Does Mr. Conlan accept from a basic corporate governance position that the concept of him being present at a board meeting sanctioning his appointment - unanimously according to the HSE note - was inappropriate?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I am interested in this AGM because this was an issue I brought up with Mr. Nugent who described the board of the CRC as self-electing, a concept I would not mind living by but one with which I am not familiar. Was Mr. Conlan an ex officiomember of the board by virtue of being chief executive officer or did he have to be elected?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: And you accepted.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: There was a period between when Mr. Conlan left the position of chief executive officer of the Mater on 31 December 2012 and taking up the position as chief executive officer of the CRC on 1 July 2013. In what capacity was he a member of the CRC board during that time?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: So you were appointed.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Before all of this got murkier, one of the original reasons that I was eager that Mr. Conlan would attend the committee was that he could provide us with a unique insight into the working of the CRC. Can he give us some detail about these board meetings? Were there robust discussions? Were there debates and votes?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Will he explain the culture of the board?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: To clarify, in his eight years on the board, does Mr. Conlan remember anyone saying that the idea from the remuneration committee does not sound right or that there was an awful lot of money coming from the friends and supporters group and where was it going? Was everyone just sitting there like nodding dogs or were there people living up to their responsibilities as directors? This has...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Yet money given to charity was used to pay wages.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Small amounts in the overall sense but significant amounts. We now know that half of the annual income of the CRC friends and supporters group one year went to Mr. Paul Kiely.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Mr. Conlan is in a unique position to answer my next question. We had this misleading or inaccurate statement provided by Mr. Kiely at the end of his testimony to this committee. We had Mr. Conlan’s successor at the Mater who provided clarity on it. It transpired the board of the CRC, as well as the auditors, signed off on financial statements which included the inaccurate statement...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Will Mr. Conlan apologise for his role as a member of the CRC board to the clients of the CRC and the taxpayer?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: My final question relates to Mr. Conlan’s resignation as CEO. I read in your statement how you said it came about. Did you discuss it with the chairman of the board? Did it come as a surprise to the board?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I thank Professor Whelan and his colleagues for being here. I also thank the HSE representatives for remaining with us. At the outset I want to make three points that predicate my remarks. None of this exchange today and none of the work of the Committee of Public Accounts - I think I can speak collectively on that - in any way seeks to undermine or devalue the excellent service being...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: What probably irritated us more was that the hospital provided the information when everyone else in the sector, including cases where the income came from private sources, had released information. Does Professor Whelan acknowledge that it was regrettable he did not provide the information sooner?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: It was regrettable from our end. We have read the correspondence from our meeting on 20 December from Professor Whelan, Mr. Jermyn and the director of finance to the HSE and this committee on the view that the hospital group was compliant with public sector pay policy. Mr. Jermyn's letter to the committee quoted the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform...

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