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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: In my view it is a generational thing and it takes a while to develop and deliver a cashless society. I know quite a number of people, some related to me, who work with cash and cheque book and would be horrified at the idea of buying a bullock with a piece of plastic. It does not work out that way. I am sure the Deputy knows such people also. Younger people are more adaptable and will...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: Credit cards, seemingly, are fixed at 0.3% regardless of the size of the transaction. That piece was reformed previously, if that is a reform, but it is the debit cards now where cash is drawn immediately and the settlement is done immediately. One's bank account is deducted as soon as the card is transacted.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: I move amendment No. 69: In page 80, to delete lines 1 to 32 and substitute the following:“ ‘credit union’ has the same meaning as it has in the Credit Union Acts 1997 to 2012; ‘financial institution’ has the same meaning as it has in the European Union (Capital Requirements) Regulations 2014;”, (iii)by substituting the following for the definition...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: The banks vary in that regard. I understand AIB charges 35 cent for a withdrawal at an ATM machine and Bank of Ireland charge 20 cent. Some cards are free at point of use but they charge a quarterly fee. One will find it has been done when one gets the statement, but Deputy McGrath is right. There must be pressure on people and one of the most significant actions we took in this package...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: That might be true but I am told that contactless transactions are usually free so we are moving in the right direction. I take the Deputy's point. We will encourage the banks to co-operate.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: I move amendment No. 70:In page 80, to delete line 38 and substitute the following: “ “ ‘bank’ means a credit institution or a financial institution other than a credit union or An Post and any of its subsidiaries;”,”.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: I move amendment No. 71:In page 81, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following: “ “ ‘credit union’ has the same meaning as it has in the Credit Union Acts 1997 to 2012;”.”.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: That is correct.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: What the Deputy said is correct about the rate applying and the date of valuation.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: It gives more flexibility to persons to order their affairs. I will read the full note. There are two important dates that are relevant for the taxation of an inheritance. These dates are used for different purposes. First, the date of death of a disponer is the date by reference to which the group tax-free thresholds and tax rates are determined. Therefore, whatever thresholds and...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: I thank the Deputy for his support for this provision. The examination I did on the family home was to satisfy myself that persons who lived in the family home and who previously were acting as carers could inherit the family home without any inheritance tax liability. Having established that this was the case and that the conditions attached were not very onerous, I did not move to make...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: I thank the Deputy. I do not propose to accept this amendment. The Government has no plans to introduce a wealth tax, although all taxes and potential taxation options are of course constantly reviewed. Wealth can be taxed in a variety of ways, some of which are already in place in Ireland. Capital gains tax, CGT, and capital acquisitions tax, CAT, are, in effect, taxes on wealth, as they...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: We can access that for the committee. I presume it is on the CSO's website. I am not criticising Mr. McWilliams. It was January 2015 and the lead-in time to the broadcasting of television programmes can sometimes be quite lengthy. As such, the data may not have been available when the programme was filmed. However, it casts a totally different light on the distribution of wealth in...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: That is not what we are doing.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: The Deputy is missing the point. It is a very clever debating point but it is not accurate. I am not trying to "out-data" anybody. I am saying that there is domestically-generated CSO data from January of this year which was not used in the Deputy's main reference, namely, Mr. McWilliams's television programme. Once the current data from the CSO are taking into account, Mr. McWilliams's...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: The Deputy said he accepted what I said yesterday to the effect that income and wealth are different. Now he is using income data to prove a wealth divergence. That is not logical.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: I have no objection to the Deputy and his party bringing forward proposals for taxes. In so far as the Department of Finance can cost them for the Deputy, it will do so. However, I pointed out in my initial reply that there is no database of the wealth of the nation within any State agency, including the Revenue Commissioners. It is very difficult to construct a tax if one does not know...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: The Deputy is opening up a very wide debate on the theory of governance and how much the State should know and acquire information about its citizens. If someone has a Picasso hanging in their bathroom, should the State know about it if the person who purchased the Picasso-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: -----did so with after-tax income? This is huge debate in the United States about whether there should be big or small government and to what degree the state should have files of data on everything about its citizens. It is a different theory of governance.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2015: Committee Stage (Resumed) (18 Nov 2015)

Michael Noonan: That is what the Deputy said. He said-----

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