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Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I have very little time so I want very short replies.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: That is fine. What are the annual running costs, including staff, for an ambulance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: What about replacement vehicles for the Dublin Fire Brigade? Would that be-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: An article in a newspaper earlier this year stated that a debt in the amount of €116 million was owed by the HSE to Dublin City Council in respect of the ambulance service. That debt went back over a nine-year period. Is that something that is in dispute? Why would such a debt be outstanding for such a length of time?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: How has the HSE been engaging on that? Is there a legal process involved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Does the HSE accept there is money outstanding?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Okay. I will move to another area. The annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General includes a chapter in respect of the management of clinical indemnity. Perhaps one of the biggest areas relates to contingent liability. There is somewhere in the region of €4.5 billion involved, and €3.4 billion of claims. The estimated outstanding liability is €3.4 billion....

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: We would all accept that where a baby has suffered a brain injury at birth, for example, the number one priority is to ensure that lessons are learned from that and it is not repeated. That should go without saying. We are supposed to be at a point where there is open disclosure when there has been an accident. Representatives of the State Claims Agency were before the committee and we...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I would have thought the HSE would be a driver in that regard because we are seeing this as a stated contingent liability. That will include the legal costs. It was the non-availability of the courts that appears to have brought about this change. We need to pursue this matter separately and we may have to look at this chapter in its own right because I am not at all satisfied that this is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: It is about changing behaviour in terms of making mediation more available rather than the legal profession deciding that this is the way one deals with it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: It was really noticeable when the courts were not available. With regard to the filling of the position, is Mr. Mulvany, as acting CEO, on the same salary as the outgoing CEO?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I want to come back to the issue of the Ambulance Service. The newspaper article pretty much said that the costs for providing the service have risen steadily and the cost to the Dublin Fire Brigade emergency ambulance service is expected to reach just less than €26 million. As we know, the amount that has been allocated from the HSE is €9.19 million, so there is €16.55...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: I absolutely value the service as well.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: We are the Committee of Public Accounts. If there is a disparity between the cost of running a service in one area as opposed to another, it would be our job to try to understand why that is the case.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: They are not under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General so we do not get the opportunity to do that. That is under the local government auditor. I will move to a different topic, which is the cyber attack. Some €657 million over seven years is the cost of implementing the PwC recommendations. Obviously, some of the things that happened can be rectified reasonably...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Are they networked?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: So there would be Windows 7 machines in a network.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: To be honest, I do not think-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: Windows 7 is out of licence. I do not think anyone needs to be technically competent to know that if something is out of licence, there is not the kind of security that is required if it is on a network.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(6 Oct 2022)

Catherine Murphy: What of the numbers?

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