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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: We have received apologies from Senators Higgins and Sherlock. The minutes of the 27 September 2023 meeting were agreed in private session. I welcome Mr. Gary Tobin, assistant secretary at the Department of Finance; Mr. Gerald Angley, counsellor; and Ms Hazel Ryan, EU budget attaché. I remind members and witnesses of the note on privilege. Members are covered by full privilege...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: None of the members online have indicated they would like to speak. I will go back over some of the points Mr. Tobin raised in his opening statement. He said that the Commission has pointed to major challenges arising since the budget of 2020 and he spoke about Ukraine and Russia, inflation and so on. What other major challenges are there?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: The EU is experiencing the general costs which domestically we are all experiencing.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: In the context of the borrowings the EU has had to make, and therefore the rising interest rates, how are those borrowings structured? Are they fixed rates? Is it money on the short term from the markets? Who makes the decisions around that? What structure is there to say that the risk will be mixed and a set rate will be taken, as we would do in our own economy? Who looks at that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: The Department might provide us a note on the risk spread and the amounts of money involved.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: What is the function of the Commission’s equivalent of the Committee of Public Accounts? Does it engage with or examine the Commission? Who examines whether the Commission is getting value for money? Are there a number of such bodies to examine the various stages?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: Is that the only formal oversight group that examines all of the EU’s spend?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: What about the Members we elect? What oversight work do they do?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: Is that a forensic assessment or does the committee just take a general look at the figures?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: They are all robust examinations.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: There is to be an extra €100 billion in the budget from 2021 to 2027. The witnesses also mentioned the war in Ukraine and so on. Before I ask about those matters, from where does Ireland’s contribution to accommodating people who are fleeing the war in Ukraine come?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: Alongside the contribution we are making to Europe is a direct contribution made by the Irish Government.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: How much has been set aside for the latter in 2023 and 2024?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: The Department might let us have the figure for accommodation for those fleeing the war. Alongside that is the ongoing cost in respect of international protection applicants. We need to examine all of these costs in terms of our contribution to Europe. I know that we have our own responsibilities as a State, but we need to quantify the numbers constantly for what has been, is being and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: I understand that. It handles the International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, and so forth. I could see IPAS doing a better job. Perhaps the Department of Finance should examine the efficiency and waste in that service. I know that is not on today’s agenda, but I am raising it as a concern.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: We will deal with that when the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform appears before us, but I know that the Departments sit down at some stage and chat to each other. The witnesses might just say that they heard us raise this concern here.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: I thank Mr. Tobin. The legislation that will be before the Oireachtas on Thursday will do what?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: It is not bypassing what we are discussing now.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: EU Budgetary Proposals: Department of Finance (4 Oct 2023)

John McGuinness: It is not making a decision-----

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