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Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. O'Brien does not micromanage everything but in overall terms the buck would stop with him.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: I turn to that section of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report which deals with the management and oversight of grants to health agencies. Perhaps we could get it up on the screen. It is the one just prior to page 275. It states that internal audit commenced a programme of random audits of agencies in receipt of funding less than €1 million. Will Mr. Flynn indicate if that...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Is it based on random audits?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: It is difficult for us then to know whether they were random or audited.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: How many audits were there that would have informed figure 19.11 in the summary?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Do we have a copy of the breakdown of those 19 audits?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Could we can get that up on the screen as well? This is then a combination of both random and what one would describe as targeted audits.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: How many were done randomly and how many were targeted?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: If we take literally what the Comptroller and Auditor General's report says, it says random. It does not say random and targeted. Will Mr. McCarthy say why that was? If we go back to page 275, we are talking specifically about the summary of the HSE internal audit findings for 2016. It does not even specify how many but we know it is 19 because we got the follow-up. The relevant...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Does Mr. McCarthy accept that it is not as clear when one is reading it?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Of the 19 that are a combination of random and targeted, how many were random? Most of them were targeted.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Why were they targeted?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Did the witness carry out any work or have any oversight over the internal audit of Console?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: The witness will remember that there were more than 60 findings. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: The findings were all classed as having systemic difficulties. A quote from the report stated that the findings had national implications for the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Would the witness describe those findings as failures?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Within which organisations?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: Were there any failures of oversight and enforcement?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: The internal audit report, and I will stick with this organisation for the moment before turning to others, stated that there were 60 very serious findings, all of which showed systemic problems and which were of the highest priority. The report said that this had significant national implications for the HSE. If the internal audit report mentioned significant national implications, which...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies (26 Oct 2017)

David Cullinane: In terms of process from the HSE side and in terms of enforcement, given the gravity of the issues in this organisation - there are 19 more and we will go through those in a moment - it did point to failures in oversight and enforcement of compliance. Would that be a fair assessment?