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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Yes, or even just the percentages.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Considering we will have a break, which I presume will last for approximately 15 minutes, perhaps Mr. Downes might be able to find that information. It would also be useful if we got information on the number of products available in Ireland that were labelled as having originated from the settlements.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: I thank Mr. Downes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: I thank Mr. Hughes and Mr. Downes for their patience. It is frustrating for witnesses when members run off for a vote. We had just a couple of outstanding questions before the break, which we were trying to resolve. The first is in relation to the labelling of products originating in the Israeli illegal settlements. Do we have any clarification as to how many products are currently...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: So we cannot even say for sure whether there are actually any products in the Irish market at all that have this labelling to indicate they originate in the Israeli illegal settlements?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: The difficulty is that the labelling is the assurance that products that may emanate from Israel and which are available in the Irish market do not actually originate from, or are not associated with, the illegal settlements. Is it not the truth that there is actually no way for consumers in Ireland to know if a product they are purchasing from Israel actually originates from an illegal...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Exactly, but we do not know if any products in the Irish market actually carry that label.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Is the Department able to categorically give an assurance that if any product originates from Israeli settlements and is available in the Irish market it will absolutely have that label?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: What efforts has the Department made to be able to be categoric in stating that and in making the statement Mr. Downes has made, considering that the Department and the CSO apparently cannot tell us whether there are actually any products with this particular label available in the Irish market? Has the Department gone through a trawl of all Israeli products available in Ireland to identify...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Is it fair then to say that the Department has not carried out any extensive analysis as to whether or not the law is being broken?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: My own position is that the easiest thing for any consumer or any entity to do, in order to be 100% sure, is to just not purchase anything that has a "made in Israel" mark or bar code on it. What about the other way we discussed about dual-use products? How do we ensure that the products we are allowing to be exported from Ireland to Israel do not subsequently end up in the illegal...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Will Mr. Downes please repeat the part about human rights in the country of destination?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: I just do not know how the Departments could ever apply that criteria and approve a single application for a dual-use export to a State that, as I understand it, is actually categorised by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and several other human rights bodies as operating an apartheid regime.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Mr. Downes mentioned that there is an assessment of the state of destination's compliance with international humanitarian law. On the basis that a number of applications to the tune of more than €70 million were approved last year, am I to take it that it was the Department's assertion that Israel is in compliance with international humanitarian law?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: I am sorry for not fully understanding. What do the criteria mean in respect of international humanitarian law? Is there a points system? What does that assessment involve? How then is it transposed in terms of a final decision in respect of an export licence?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Are there states-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: In the accounting software example Mr. Downes has given, are there states that currently would not get an export licence on the basis of the state's compliance with human rights and international humanitarian law as opposed to the actual specific application? Would it just be standard with Mr. Downes' Department not to approve the export licence because of the state in which the licence...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Therefore, if there was an application from a Russian company based in Russia, would the application be approved today?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Okay. We will have to try to keep the answers shorter if possible. The figures we have are for 2023. As I mentioned, there were 32 applications. Is Mr. Downes in a position to say what percentage of those were actually granted? He was not in a position to do so before the break.

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