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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I will give way to the other members.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I will continue on this theme because I am flabbergasted by Mr. Carville's response. I will try to elaborate on my thoughts so that Mr. Carville can help me understand his reasoning. Mr. Carville said that the reason to invest the €66 billion in the banks to recapitalise them was to save the entirety of the banking system. That would have been the reasoning given at the time the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I am not separating them, I accept that was Mr. Carville's response. I will isolate Anglo Irish Bank from the other banks. We invested €29 billion - invested is the wrong word - but €29 billion was put into Anglo Irish Bank. Who exactly was saved on the back of that €29 billion spend by the taxpayer?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Who were they?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Corporates? I doubt there were many Joe Soaps and that is not an adequate response. It is a bit flippant.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Do we have a breakdown of what that €29 billion was spent on in Anglo Irish Bank?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Some €29 billion went in to fill a hole. Who would have been the Accounting Officer signing a cheque for €29 billion to go into Anglo Irish Bank? I imagine it would have been the Secretary General.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I understand that. Some €29 billion of taxpayers' money was transferred from the State into Anglo Irish Bank. That is a fact. Somebody would have had to sign the cheque for that money and somebody is accountable for that spend. I imagine the Secretary General of the Department of Finance is the Accounting Officer for the transfer of that money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I understand the policy choice was made but once a policy choice is made and money is then transferred from the public purse, from a Department to an organisation, the Accounting Officer is responsible for that money. Some €29 billion was put into Anglo Irish Bank. I was looking for a breakdown of the €66.8 billion and exactly where that money went. Similar to the NAMA money,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: The witnesses are looking at me as if it is a silly question. It is not a silly question. I want the witnesses to explain precisely what €29 billion, a huge amount of taxpayers' money that was put into a private organisation, was used for. I do not want to hear the general term that it was used to recapitalise the bank. The money that was given was used for something. What was it...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: So it its purpose was to give the bank additional capital. What did the bank do with that money?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: What exactly are its liabilities?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Bondholders, debt, exactly, so the €29 billion was essentially used to pay off debt, which is the point that I am making. This is a bad bank. It is a developer's bank, essentially, and it is extraordinary that we can make a statement that if that investment was not made, the entirety of the banking system could have collapsed. That might hold some logic if one was talking about...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I do not know precisely how that €66 billion was spent other than being told it was used by the banks to recapitalise those banks. It would be useful if we could get a breakdown of exactly how that money was spent. For example, which banks got what from the first €66 billion? What was the money used for when the banks were recapitalised? What did they do with the money? Are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: The biggest amount went to Anglo Irish Bank. I come then to the breakdown I asked for earlier, which relates to NAMA loans that were acquired and the €31.8 billion. We can see that Anglo Irish Bank got-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Some €13.4 billion but the losses were €21 billion. The crystalised losses were €21 billion. Is that right?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: On those transfers, and the overall crystalised losses are €42.6 billion. Is that right?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: So the actual crystalised loss for Anglo Irish Bank was 50% of the overall loss?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Roughly 50%. Half of the €66 billion went into Anglo Irish Bank. Then NAMA was set up and was given €31.8 billion to take the bad loans off the banks. The banks then crystalised losses. The losses are €42.6 billion. In the case of Anglo Irish Bank, it was €21 billion, a majority, and we can maybe question the wisdom of that. What happened when the banks...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: At the time, they would have been booked as a loss when the transaction happened.

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