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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: There are fewer junctions and so on.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: Did Mr. Kennedy put a value on that? How does he work that into this? It is intangible.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: Without being awfully crude, I will not ask the question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: Pardon?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: One would think I was getting ghoulish now. I am raising the point that there are road safety and financial benefits.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: To move on to Mr. Kennedy's conclusions, they state that although no economic appraisal was carried out, that was done in many cases a number of years prior to the contract being awarded with no interim reappraisal to account for changes in costs and traffic forecasts. An economic appraisal was carried out on day one. It might have been years before the project got off the ground. One of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am trying to put balance in this. There are some good PPPs too.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am still on the roads. I want to move on to page 28 of that document. The reason I ask this goes without saying. It is the Portlaoise PPP scheme. Without getting too detailed, will somebody explain page 28? The witnesses have given us the ten value for money assessment analyses on doing a road project by the traditional method versus the PPP. There are ten pages there. There is a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: They were for internal use.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: Give us a little help, then.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: The witnesses do not need to go into too much detail now. We will get it in layman's English for the general punters when the time comes. The witnesses have given costs, toll costs, VAT and estimates of all those things, and then the project risk retained. Some €103 million seems like a massive figure to me. I know the witnesses tell me they have a formula. It is a very big...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: The witnesses have gone to the trouble of getting us ten charts and saying that they are providing great information. I have been told that here all day. The witnesses are providing information but some of it is not easily understandable. They might help us with the understandability of it. I am confident enough to say as an accountant that I understand most things, but if I have...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Committee of Public Accounts has that document?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: I do not need to go there today then. The witnesses will send that document to us. I will move on to the schools now. We have had a chat on that. I am teasing out the information that has been given here today. On the schools issue, the witnesses mentioned it early on in this document, No. 1154. There are several pages of different schools and PPP projects. There is a page on each....

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: So it is an average of €20,000 per pupil.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Ó Foghlú said that a few minutes ago. Does Mr. Ó Foghlú see what I am talking about on his document, No. 1154? We will not go through the details of that. I see €63 million. That was in 2001 for 3,475 pupils. That was an average of €18,000 per pupil. On the next page and the figures are in the same order, approximately €20,000. The chart...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: It is the live costs, the maintenance. As Mr. Ó Foghlú can see, I mentioned two big schools in Portlaoise. There are several around. The value from an education perspective is very important. If a door has fallen off a hinge, someone broke into the school at the weekend or the central heating is not working, it is not the principal's problem. He or she gets on with the job of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Ó Foghlú can see that there is a benefit. It is probably a bit intangible but it would be begrudging not to acknowledge that there is a benefit to the running of the school if it does not have to worry about cutting the grass and that sort of thing.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am nearly done. Later, that document has value for money reports, the school bundle 1, which happens to include the Portlaoise schools, school bundle 2 and school bundle 3. The value for money report for the school bundle 2 is about 12 pages and the one for school bundle 3 is about seven pages but the report on school bundle 1 is a 29 page document. Could Mr. Ó Foghlú explain...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Seán Fleming: I have added the two. In one case there was an eight page report and then a four page report and I have added them.

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