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Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: Mr. Ellingham?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: We have Mr. McEnery saying it was negative, we have Mr. Soffe saying that it was significant or it was more of an issue, and we have Mr. Ellingham saying that it was neutral. Effectively, that is a plus, a minus and a neutral which makes it a neutral, which means that it had no impact.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: But the weighting put in subsequently, in their few words here and, by the way, as referenced by NAMA's chair, is much higher.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: I think I have proved my point. I will move on. I have a limited amount of time. Lazard is constantly being referred to here. Let me just say this, I, personally, would never hire the company from what I have seen here. For me, this is a box-ticking exercise. Its role was bizarre, and I have referenced this previously. Mr. Soffe, in his opening statement, stated, "I and other Board...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: I know it is. Trust me, I know who it is. I knew who it was before this. Anyway, we will agree to disagree.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: Okay, fine. I need to move on. Is there anything in the process that the board believes it should have improved on or would have done differently or better?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: The chair of their board said that he would have done one thing differently, that is, the documentation. Does these gentlemen agree with that?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: I do not have any issue with Mr. McEnery's last statement, but it is fair to say that records and documentation could have been kept better. NAMA's own chair said that.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: Let us get down into the nitty-gritty of what I am getting at here. It is not just about minutes. Throughout this process, when we have looked for documentation in relation to the analysis as regards the discount, we have been told on a couple of occasions that we will get that. We still have not got it. We asked again here today. If there is such good documentation, let us set a time...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: We have been looking for it for some time, however. Today is Tuesday. Can we have it by Thursday? If there is no problem with the documentation, we should have it by now, not in minutes. Mr. McEnery said repeatedly that he is "sure" there were various iterations that would have made references to confirm his hypothesis. If so, he should produce the information immediately.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: Three weeks, for sure.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: This week would be good.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: We will find out about the other documentation this week.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: Good.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: We actually do not really know what Mr. Soffe is talking about. We will find out soon, I hope. Let me refer to the payment of success fees. When the delegates became aware of this, PIMCO had pulled out or was forced out. We still not have got to the bottom of what happened there. An assurance was received from Cerberus afterwards that no payments would be made to anyone associated with...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: Past or present. Sorry. I have raised this issue before. What about the step-down process whereby a payment could be made to somebody involved with NAMA through someone getting a payment from Cerberus? In other words, did NAMA ensure categorically that those it was doing business with could not make success payments to anyone associated with NAMA?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: I need not ask about the assurance it gave. I asked whether NAMA ensured that third parties receiving success payments could not make further payments to anyone associated with NAMA. I seek a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (18 Oct 2016)

Alan Kelly: That is fine. May I make an observation based on Mr. Soffe's answer? The answer is obviously "No" because the process would not have been engaged in had the answer been "Yes". If NAMA had asked Cerberus for a guarantee that it would not be making any success payments to any third parties that, in turn, would make payments to anyone associated with NAMA, the process could not have been gone...