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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: We appreciate that Mr. Watt is here but it was our collective judgment call as elected members of an Oireachtas committee dealing with finance that Mr. Paul Quinn, the chief procurement officer in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the line Department of this committee, should appear before us. That is why on three separate occasions we asked that he present before us. Mr....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Given the current cost of the national children's hospital, does Mr. Watt believe it is value for money?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: We all want a national children's hospital. We all want the best facilities, particularly for our children. I have had reasons to attend Temple Street and Crumlin hospitals and I am aware of the condition of those facilities. I do not accept that it is not possible to put a value on the new facility. It is one of the central roles of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to do...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: The board adopted the fast-track two-stage tender procurement model. Did the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform have a role in authorising or signing off on that model?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Does that committee have to consider whether an approach is the appropriate type of approach before it approves such derogations?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: It approved the derogation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: The committee would have to be satisfied that a particular approach is the best course of action.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: This falls within the remit of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Does that come under the remit of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Is it only public servants on the forum?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Would Mr. Watt accept that the approval of that derogation is one of the reasons we are seeing such massive overruns in the national children's hospital?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Is that not what the two-stage project is about?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Is it not what the body under the remit of the Department sanctioned?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: When the Government contracts committee for construction met it was aware that that was the model that was being followed, that there would have been significant public moneys spent on the preliminary works and that at a later stage, there would be a second piece of work, which, in theory, the Government could opt out of but, in practice, the developer had the Government over a barrel.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: What due diligence does the committee undertake in terms of the bill of quantities because the bill of quantities was not just a bit out?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: I would like to return to some of the questions asked earlier. The Secretary General at the Department of Health and the Minister for Health were made aware in late August that there was a €191 million overrun and a potential additional €200 overrun. As Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, does Mr. Watt believe that that information should have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: Mr. Watt might be getting the numbers mixed up. The figure of €191 million had crystallised at that point in time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: It was another €200 million. I will outline the point in case Mr. Watt did not understand. At the time the Minister for Health and the Secretary General of the Department were aware that there was a crystallisation of the figure of €191 million and potentially something above it, but that information was not relayed to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: The other number did not. The figure of €191 million stayed the same. Should that information have been relayed to the Department?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: National Children's Hospital: Discussion with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (7 Mar 2019)

Pearse Doherty: The problem is that whatever has happened with the national children's hospital has happened. If possible, we must find a way to drive down costs, while delivering the project in a timely manner. Mr. Watt is the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I want to have confidence that he believes that in the course of developing a budget for 2019, if a Secretary...

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