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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Exactly. My understanding is that there was none, or it was not to my satisfaction anyway.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: We have the education sector reports the Comptroller and Auditor General has prepared, namely the Limerick-Sligo report and the Waterford report. I propose that we deal with both on the same day if possible. I read the Limerick-Sligo report several times and found it shocking. I want to be careful how I put this to the Comptroller and Auditor General, but is it the case that the University...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: If we have a university that has misled the Comptroller and Auditor General-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: -----and the Department and, possibly-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: -----this committee as well, it is incredible. It chimes with what we were saying when its representatives were here. We were getting push-back from these universities as to what we were asking questions for and they said we were being too tough. It goes back to this public perception, or rather the perception of some in the commentariat, that the Committee of Public Accounts is...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: If the Comptroller and Auditor General prepares special reports, we have a responsibility to follow up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: I welcome Mr. McKeon and his colleagues. I accept that the Secretary General and Accounting Officer is dealing with four chapters from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and the appropriation accounts but the reason we seek supporting documentation in advance of an Accounting Officer coming in is to avoid lengthy opening statements. We have a voting block at 12.50 p.m. I do not...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: -----when we will have the staff from Revenue and the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government here? That is fine. I gave prior notice that I would raise this with Mr. McKeon. He talked about his staff working hard, and no doubt they do, and I pass on my appreciation for the work his staff does. This morning, under our correspondence, we received a breakdown, at our request,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: If I could just come back on that, we have caveats here from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. They set out a number of caveats that might explain why the figures are higher in some areas. That explanation is not one of them. This breakdown colour co-ordinates each Department in terms of the numbers of staff. Mr. McKeon's is one of the bigger Departments, of 5,000 staff or...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: Let me clear this up as it would be useful for us. Can we go back to the Department and get a gender breakdown and an age profile for each Department? That might give us the full picture of what Mr. McKeon is saying. I am not saying that staff do not have an entitlement to apply for sick leave, of course they do. For example, we are very sympathetic to the type of job the staff of the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: We just have a breakdown of the Department and the number of days lost. There is no caveat given here to the effect that there could be variations because of gender where, for example, there is maternity leave and I accept that. There is no caveat for a higher age profile. That might have an impact. I am saying we did not get that information, so I think it is fair enough for the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: I will deal with JobPath in the context of the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report and the Appropriation Accounts. I will put the same questions to Mr. McKeon as I put to him at our previous meeting because we wish to assess whether we are getting value for money. The Comptroller and Auditor General looked at the process, rather than whether the project represented value for...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: What is the up-to-date figure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: There were two companies who rolled out JobPath, namely, Seetec and Turas Nua. Can Mr. McKeon provide a breakdown of how much of the €109 million listed in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General went to each of the two organisations?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: That is okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: We thank the companies for the information because it is helpful to us.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: They were paid per individual. There was an initial registration payment when an individual signed up to the personal progression plan.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: How much was that payment?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: There were sustainment fees once a person had a 13-week period of sustained employment. What is the average for those?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 11 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 12 - JobPath Employment Activation Service
Chapter 13 - Actuarial Review of Social Insurance Fund
Chapter 14 - Overpayments of Age-Related Jobseeker's Allowance
Chapter 20 - PRSI Contributions by the Self-Employed
2017 Social Insurance Fund
(29 Nov 2018)

David Cullinane: I thank the Accounting Officer for that information. It was information we sought previously and we appreciated that there could have been issues of commercial sensitivity. However, it allows us to evaluate whether we are getting value for money so it is helpful. On page 139 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, it is stated that the service was intended to assist...

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