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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Ms Egan and all of our witnesses for their remarks. I now invite members of the committee to take up their slots in the order in which they indicated. I call Deputy Daly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Bruen and Deputy Daly. We might come back to Deputy Daly later on if there is time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: There is not a whole lot of time, actually there is technically no time for responses, but I will take a couple because we may do a second round. I will take a couple of brief responses. Does Mr. McMeel want to respond?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. McMeel. Before moving on to the next member, I have a follow-up question, as is the Chair's prerogative. When Mr. McMeel talks about his function as a receiver in that context, does that have the same rights, responsibilities and obligations a receiver would normally have in any commercial undertaking where a receiver is appointed in lieu of debt, etc.? Is it the same? There...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: If there is a redemption possibility and so forth.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: Is CAB under any obligation or is there a due diligence to make sure there is no connected party coming in by the back door to take the asset on again?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: And the State is enriched every time. The State is getting some capital every time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: That is interesting, I thank Mr. McMeel. Senator Gallagher is next, to be followed by Deputy Ó Ríordáin.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: Senator Gallagher might facilitate that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: Just to remind members that the convention has been to avoid any scenario where the person may be identifiable when speaking about specifics. Perhaps we will keep it general.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: Senator McDowell is up next.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: A common question that gets asked is about the powers of stop and search and seizure. If a mobile phone is in someone's hand, to what extent can they be compelled to reveal the information on it and so on? That is an interesting angle of questioning and something we need to consider.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: That concludes the first round and Senator Ruane has her hand up for the second round. Other members may return.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: No, but I will not crack the whip too hard.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: I will interrupt the Senator as I have let her go a little over time. I will try to summarise her two points, to which I have listened with interest. If I understand correctly she first spoke about a property that begins life as a local authority property-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: It becomes privately owned and the private ownership transpires to be a criminal enterprise. The Proceeds of Crime Act or similar legislation is invoked to seize that for the State. The Senator's suggestion is that it should just return to the council or local authority.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: To be fair to the witnesses, her second point is probably more of a general view of the criminal justice system, and how communities that suffer most from crime should receive the rewards. It is a fair point. I do not know whether it is strictly covered in the Bill, but if witnesses and members-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: That is fine. I am just clarifying that fact. It is probably a bit beyond the scope of the Bill, but if witnesses have views on it, I would be happy to hear them. We will go around the table for the last time. The people who have not spoken yet or much might like to come in. We will start with the representatives of the Bar and work our way up the table. They can treat this as a last...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: The witnesses might want to go over and beyond the Senator's remarks because we are about to wrap up the session. If they want to make a concluding remark, they should feel free to do so at this stage.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2024: Discussion (16 Apr 2024)

James Lawless: I have seen that in the notes. I thank all the witnesses and members for the very useful discussion today. We will have further meetings in private session where will consider all the points made by the different stakeholders and witnesses. We will then prepare a report and we will share it with everyone when we publish it. I hope it does justice to the various submissions and points...

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