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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: As I said, the amendment is to the definition of public bodies, which is unnecessary in that tribunals are entities established under statute and appointed by Government and are encompassed by this FOI legislation, unless specifically exempted or excluded, which they are not. The real issue, as I understand it, is that amendment No. 14 goes back to the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I am saving never. It is a matter for the tribunal itself. Obviously one cannot have persons saying they do not agree with the conclusions of the tribunal so that they will selectively ask for information and release of documentation that supports their view. The idea is that all data are presented to a tribunal, weighed impartially by it and it comes to conclusions.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: This is virgin territory, remember.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: These were excluded entirely up to this point.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The definition proposed by Deputy Murphy and supported by Deputy Boyd Barrett is based on the definition set out in the access to information on the environment regulations which transposed the requirements of EU Directive 2003/4/EC on public access to information on the environment, known as the Aarhus Convention. The definition in the convention and the regulations was left deliberately...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It is the first time they are being brought in.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The chief executives did not agree.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The NTMA was not encompassed at all under FOI.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Except in so far as we have outlined.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I thank Deputy Murphy. It is encompassed and I hope it will be satisfactorily dealt with when the questions are asked but we need to get the legislation enacted first. I genuinely do not want to make any political points about this but this is pushing back a huge set of boulders against a degree of resistance and it is an extremely good platform to have. We will not agree on every aspect...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I do not think Deputy Fleming really wants that.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: He wants to make a point in regard to the letters. I have to take advice on whether those letters would be part of the administrative release. I have asked for clarity on that and I will come back to Deputy Fleming on Report Stage. I think they may well be and if they are, it will be the first time such letters are released.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: They were not released under the Croke Park agreement and the other national agreements prior to this. It is in that context that they were not released on this occasion but I will clarify that matter for the Deputy on Report Stage. I have to be more circumspect in what I say about the terms and conditions of those in the NTMA. Deputy Fleming is right that my instinctive position is that...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: -----they would have an awful lot to say about that. I do not want to exaggerate it but there are always countervailing pulls on them to work elsewhere. If we are to get people of the quality we need to do this really specialist work, we need to be able to pay rates that will hold on to them. What we have got in direct negotiations is that we will have the information released at least in...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy is right. The Cabinet acts collectively and we debated this in detail. We make a decision to do right by the State. If I was convinced it would do no harm to have full disclosure on these matters, that is what I would push for but I accepted the arguments and the presentations that we need to ensure we have these people and that this is as far as we can go at this stage.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I will go through them seriatim. There is a variety of subsets in the grouping. In respect of the amendment tabled by Deputy Sean Fleming, No. 12, which is grouped with amendments Nos 81 and 83, receivers and administrators, whether appointed by NAMA or by another secured lender, fall outside the definition of a public body as set out in section 6 of the Freedom of Information Bill. The...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Is it concerned with the Companies Act?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It is the total function in EirGrid. It has a contractual relationship with providers. That is what it does, both buying and selling.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I am saying in the distribution of it. It has a commercial relationship with any electricity generating company that generates capacity on the island. We have a single integrated all-island market and it has a commercial relationship with all the companies operating there.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The point I made, obviously inadequately, is that freedom of information is not how that should be scrutinised. If EirGrid has proposals, it is required by law to set out those proposals. It is required by the law to produce options, to have a consultation process and to go through the proper planning processes. That is the level of scrutiny.

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