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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Department has a bit of work to do. That could change, from year to year, depending on the activity of different organisations.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: The work they carry out. The Department needs an ongoing review system.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: One of the reasons for the surplus is that the Department had more income. It is unusual to have these-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Under the new single pension scheme, the contributions being made by people and which they will be entitled to draw down are being used by the Department to pay today's pensioners.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: This is wrong in every respect.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Why are those contributions not going to a fund such as that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: It defeats the whole purpose of people contributing to that fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: They should be.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: New recruits to the Civil Service are members of the single pension fund and are making contributions to the pensions they will receive in 40 years, but the money they are contributing is being used to fund current pension payments. Mr. Watt is stating that the State will eventually cover that gap. That is not good enough. It is defeating the whole concept of-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: We know that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: The previous fund never fully funded the pension but it was, at least, a dedicated managed fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Department is using the pension contributions which people are making to pensions that they expect to draw down in the future. That is not what we thought this scheme was about. This issue should be revisited in the new year. I was a Member of the Oireachtas when the single scheme was brought in. The understanding of Members was that the contributions would be going into a fund. Mr....

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Department is robbing Peter to pay Paul. It is using contributions by new recruits to pay the pensioners who have left the Civil Service. That should not be happening.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: This was one of the biggest pieces of legislation in recent years and its intention was clear. However, it does not seem to me that the intention is being followed through. The pensions of new recruits will be calculated based on career average salary rather than final salary. They are contributing under a different regime. The money they have paid since joining has gone elsewhere and the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: We know that the State will stand behind those pensions. On chapter 3, I ask Mr. Watt to refer to table 3.7. The Budget Statement is announced before 15 October every year in accordance with EU rules but it takes six months for the Estimates to be dealt with. The Estimates are considered by the relevant committees in March or close thereto and voted upon by the Dáil in April. As...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Please do.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: The matter is being raised by the committee.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: We are debating an issue that needs to be discussed.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am backing up Mr. Watt. He should state that the Committee of Public Accounts is putting pressure on him in this regard.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: We are in agreement that it would be far more desirable for the Estimates to be dealt with in a more timely fashion.

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