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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Yes, the stick and carrot.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Is Mr. Watt on the board of NAMA?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Did the NTMA decide recently to release the building it is occupying?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Where is the NTMA going to locate?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Is that on a lease basis?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Watt is a Secretary General and Accounting Officer. He is on the board of the NTMA, which is in the process of moving. The NTMA was before the Committee of Public Accounts and was a party to the discussion on the issue of leasing buildings as opposed to purchasing them. Mr. Watt must be familiar with the broader debate on this matter.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: We are getting the impression that there is a view emanating from quarters such as Mr. Watt's - not Mr. Watt personally but board members, the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform – that there is a preference to lease rather than purchase property. Expenditure ceilings and other such issues were raised. We are receiving the view that officials are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: There is validity in the point, and it is part of the thinking.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: That is Miesian Plaza, a contract for €300 million over 25 years. What went on the State balance sheet for that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Is that on a year-by-year basis?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: However, Mr. Watt had mentioned that in some cases-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Will Mr. Watt give an example where the full lease for the 20 years went upfront onto the State balance sheet in year one?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: I ask Mr. Watt to bear with me. He introduced the matter that all of the cost could be brought onto the balance sheet in year one, depending on the nature of the lease. I have now asked him for a single example but he cannot give me one. He cannot make statements without giving an example of what he is talking about.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am saying that is what Mr. Watt is saying.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Yes, that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Finance are pushing this.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: Will Mr. Watt provide the committee with a full note?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: This is a matter that has come up when we had the NTMA, the OPW and others before us. It has come up a few times. We are asking Mr. Watt to give a detailed note from his perspective.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: To interrupt for a split second, I suspect that after we break, we will resume at 2 p.m. with the Higher Education Authority and the Department of Health. For general information, we will resume at 2 p.m.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Deputy has two minutes left. He should put the two questions together.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Collection of Pension Contributions due to the Exchequer
Chapter 3 - Control of Funding for Voted Public Services
Chapter 5 - Vote Accounting and Budget Management
Vote 11 - Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 95: Financial Reporting in the Public Sector
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 99: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2015
Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 100: Public Sector Financial Reporting for 2016
(18 Oct 2018)

Seán Fleming: I ask Mr. Watt to send us the schedule.

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