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Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: I will raise a few points. First, I thank the Minister for his frank responses throughout the meeting.

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: No. It made me reflect on the fact that if most of the questions that have been put to the Minister today were put in the form of a written parliamentary question, the Deputy would have received a letter from the Ceann Comhairle stating that the Minister has no responsibility in this area. I have raised this with the Minister previously. I think there is an issue with his Department's...

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: I have a question about An Garda Síochána. I do not expect the Minister to comment and I do not want us to have a back and forth on this. I would not say that he expressed optimism - I think he said he is "hopeful" - but virtually nobody else that we meet as a committee or as individual Deputies has confidence in the target figure of 15,000 members of An Garda Síochána...

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: Would the Minister at least allow more transparency in respect of the programme? The Minister said there is an evaluation board. That is a board whose members are again getting paid-----

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: I can point to two instances where I think there are serious questions to be answered, but there is no mechanism for anybody within these Houses - other than the Minister, I would argue - to be able to get to the truth as to whether my fears are actually real.

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: I just think that this is, to my mind, a potentially big scandal and we can either deal with it head-on now a few short years after the scheme has closed or we can wait for ten and 20 years down the line and let somebody else deal with it.

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: That is fair enough. The Minister's first-day brief suggested the criminal injuries compensation scheme was running out of money fairly quickly. What is its status now?

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: The people who get these awards have usually been through horrific experiences.

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: To eventually get to the point where an award has been made only to be told to wait is not ideal. Is the Minister still intending-----

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: Okay. Does that happen?

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: Is it still the Minister's intention to bring forward a Bill to formalise all this?

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: The Minister will be receiving an invitation from the committee. The members met earlier to invite the Minister to come in and discuss the IPAS system in a very broad sense. I hope he will be in a position to take up that invitation.

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: Right. Okay. We can talk about that. There are great concerns around how the IPAS system is managed. I have been at the coalface of this in dealing with the outworkings of it in my constituency for well over a decade now in terms of emergency accommodation. I refer to the fact that we are, on the one hand, dealing with rumours, suggestions, concerns and fears and trying to get...

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: That is fair enough but we are some way off having no reliance on private operators. I would argue it is probably a lifetime away on the current trajectory. In the meantime, there will be contracts with private operators. Is that going to continue to happen in secret, in the dark and with no information? There was a situation where two directors in one company involved in the provision of...

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: What is the Minister doing to stop that?

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: That is granted. While we are paying private operators, will the level of money involved continue to be obscene or can some brakes be put on it?

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: There would still be the same number of people. At the moment, one group is just under a different scheme.

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: Excuse me, Deputy-----

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: Deputy, I am in the Chair.

Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration: Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
(24 Jun 2025)

Matt Carthy: You are not in the Chair. I will not tolerate being interrupted by a member while I-----

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