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Written Answers — Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth: Social Media (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: The information requested is not routinely collated. However, my Department endeavours to provide information in both English and Irish, not only through social media, but through all communications channels and materials. We are committed to complying with requirements under the Official Languages Act, and this is kept under regular review.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: As the Chair said, I am joined by Ms Dara Breathnach from my Department. I thank the committee for the invitation to speak on the general scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill. This legislation is vital to allow us to intervene at Tuam, where the remains of children were interred in a deeply shocking manner with no concern for their dignity, or that of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: As the Senator noted, we are balancing a range of rights in our interventions here. Rights in regard to property are a set of rights as well. The extent to which we value them is questionable but they are protected and have to be assessed in a decision on any intervention. The clear tenet of this legislation is such that where we have identified a burial site that meets a manifestly...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: Inherently, that balancing approach is being undertaken by the Minister, in the first instance, and then the Government in determining whether an intervention is made. It is important that that is there as it ensures there is a set of criteria in the Bill, so if the Bill was ever challenged in court the Government or Attorney General could point out that a balancing test is provided for. As...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I understand that this issue was referenced in both the oral and written submissions during pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill. That provision is in place to recognise a situation where the land has transferred ownership subsequent to the burials. I am happy to continue to examine those criteria in the course of my own determinations.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: On the CPO point, the idea is to allow the State to intervene on a temporary basis. There is provision in the Bill to intervene and take possession of land on a short-term basis and, if seen as necessary, potentially pay compensation. Again, because of the constitutional protection of property rights we have to have these processes in place but they are temporary rather than permanent. ...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: On the specific point of the two references to the disapplication of coronial jurisdiction, what we are looking to address there is a situation where we want this agency to be able to intervene and exhume. From a legal point of view, it is regarded as inappropriate that at the same time the coroner would have also jurisdiction and the local authority would have jurisdiction. In terms of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: No. What I am saying is that the-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: Sorry, I spoke over the Deputy there. Would the Deputy mind repeating the last part of her question?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: What we are seeking to do in Tuam is to look at the manifestly inappropriate nature of the burials of these babies and children at the site. That is what this legislation is designed to address, namely situations where the burials of children and babies who were in mother and baby institutions or county institutions are in a manifestly inappropriate manner. That is fundamentally what this...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: Like the Deputy and many others, I am not a scientific expert in this field by any means. My understanding is that the wide range of techniques that the legislation makes provision for, both DNA and other types of identification process, are primarily about who these individuals are and that is what the legislation is designed to achieve. In terms of the information that this agency...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: My understanding is that anyone who has information about potential criminal activity has an obligation to engage with the relevant State authorities. The Garda recently set up special lines and an email address, and called on anyone who knows about criminal activity in mother and baby homes to contact it. We all welcome that. The obligation exists for anyone and everyone, including the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: My understanding, having spoken to officials and listened to experts, is that the appropriateness of the particular techniques very much depend on the particular site. It depends on the condition of the site and the condition of the remains at the site. The Deputy is right when he says that it is absolutely correct that this agency applies the right techniques to the particular site....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Senator. I believe she is correct; all of us must bear in mind that uncertainty around raising expectations and hope. We are providing for this intervention, and in particular, for DNA identification to enable identification as far as is possible. We cannot be certain what is possible, however. The experts who spoke at the pre-legislative scrutiny stage reminded us of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: In terms of this Government or another Government making a decision on a site other than Tuam, obviously, the same set of factors are set out in the legislation. Any Government and any Minister making a decision would obviously be advised to listen to the views of family members, which can be diverse and different, and we must acknowledge that. Certainly, listening to and engaging with...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Deputy. As I said before, the sole disapplication we are seeking to achieve with this legislation is around the actual carrying out of an exhumation, which is one of the powers set out in the Coroner's Act and in the Local Government Act. We do not believe it is appropriate that three bodies would have jurisdiction over an exhumation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: There is a coronial jurisdiction. It exists and we all know this. It applies in these circumstances. We are seeking to disapply two elements of it that we see as problematic in terms of the two key roles the agency is trying to achieve, which are exhumation and identification. Barring this, nothing in the legislation interferes with existing coronial jurisdiction. I got the sense the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Deputy and I absolutely understand. To clarify, determination on manifest inappropriateness will be made by the Government and not by the agency. Once the agency is established it will do the work so there will be no discretion on the part of the agency. It is a huge thing to exhume a body. In Ireland we have a culture of a resting place being a resting place and it is very...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: I might speak generally to the issue of records first and then deal specifically with the role of this agency. Access to information is absolutely crucial to survivors and indeed to a wider group of people including adoptees. Last week we brought forward the draft heads of the birth information and tracing legislation which provides the best guarantee of access to all information and I look...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs: Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the General Scheme of the Certain Institutional Burials (Authorised Interventions) Bill (Resumed) (18 May 2021)

Roderic O'Gorman: In terms of its accountability, the agency will have a director and as I indicated earlier, that director will be accountable to the Oireachtas committees. There will be an obligation to provide an annual report on the activities of the agency as well as its interactions with other State agencies. I am conscious that what this agency will be doing is incredibly sensitive in terms of the...

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