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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: I refer to a letter received by the committee - I believe it was brought to the attention of the Governor - from the Garda Commissioner's office, which dealt with queries raised during the hearing the committee had with Jonathan Sugarman. The letter from the Commissioner's office stated that liquidity ratios are set by the Central Bank in its role of economic governance. It continued that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: This is relevant to the testimony received from Jonathan Sugarman. He specifically said at this committee that he had reported the matter to gardaĆ­ at Rathmines. They, in turn, had noted it in the station book. Afterwards, the detective unit informed him a banking specialist would be in touch but that did not happen. When the committee asked the Garda Commissioner's office to comment...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: It is difficult to go into this case at this hour having had a full day's session. I cannot accept, however, what the Governor just said. The legislation at the time referred to a breach. A breach is a breach. Every single breach on each day was a breach. Accordingly, it was a breaking of the law in the context of the legislation at the time. I have the analysis here in front of me. ...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: Will Professor Lane provide the committee with the minutes of meetings? If I give information to him that I have received as Chairman rather than go through it now, will he give me a written response to the queries raised in the letter? A liquidity breach nearly 20 times over the limit is significant. There were a number of other breaches and nothing seems to have been done about them....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: That is fine.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: Has Professor Lane met Mr. Sugarman? Has he interrogated or interviewed him on the information he has available?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: I will be taking up that matter further with Professor Lane because I will not let it go. I will come back to it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: Would the delegates meet Mr. Sugarman?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: Professor Lane has agreed to a meeting and to accept the correspondence that I have. The reason I am pushing this is that it sends out the wrong signals. I do not know this individual. He had no motive other than to do the right thing. What would other whistleblowers or risk managers in the banks say when looking at the example of Mr. Sugarman who is now not employed, in extremely poor...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: No.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: It might have been said by a member or, indeed, it might have been said by Mr. Sugarman, but the comparison was made to a person driving at a 100 mph, even if it was for five minutes, where the speed limit was 80 mph. That person is breaking the speed limit. If the Garda stopped him within that five minutes, he got a ticket. It goes back to the same thing as before.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: Just one second. In this instance, for more than five minutes, it was 20 times over the limit and nothing was done. It sends out the wrong message. It is the complete wrong message. Mr. Sugarman came here and gave a convincing submission to this committee. He would contradict some of the things Professor Lane would say. I believe that a meeting relative to that case with Mr. Sugarman...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: Those kinds of breaches wrecked the country.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: Of course they did.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: I am talking relative to regulation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: They broke the regulation. They broke the law.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: I will leave it at this for the moment. The risk manager reads the legislation and the law and understands fully his obligation. He is so frightened by what is happening in the bank about not just one case one day, but a number of them, that he decides to risk his job and tell the Central Bank that there is something wrong. He went to the Garda and said that he had broken the law and told...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: I am just telling Professor Lane what happened.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: If one breaks the law temporarily, one breaks the law. When one breaks the law, in accordance with the banking rules, regulations and legislation, there are sanctions and penalties. This is why questions are always asked about the Central Bank and how it behaves towards bigger banks and what it expects of individuals in the bank. That individual and individuals like him also deserve the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland (19 Oct 2017)

John McGuinness: I am very much aware of that legislation and so are a number of others who turned out to be whistleblowers. Therefore, in the spirit of that legislation and in arranging this meeting with Mr. Sugarman, we need to explore all of that. I am prepared to park this part of the questioning until we meet, but I will come back to it. I also want to send the Central Bank some information on the...

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