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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: We have deleted section 4 and we have moved on to section 5. We have discussed some of the amendments to section 5 but they have not yet been moved.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: I move amendment No. 4: In page 7, to delete line 30 and substitute the following: “ “(ga) a proposed total cost of credit is excessive,”, (iii) in paragraph (h), by the substitution of “previous licence,” for “previous licence.”, and (iv) by the insertion of the following paragraphs after paragraph (h): “(i) the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: I note the Deputy's point. The term of the licence changing will bring high-cost credit provider licences more in line with existing Central Bank licensing arrangements for other types of regulated financial service providers. The Deputy might say that this is a particular case because of the clientele involved, but the reason we have done it is to be consistent with other licensing...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: I thank the Deputy for his proposed amendment. I know that Deputy Doherty has a great interest in this legislation and I can see where he is coming from with his proposal. Lower interest rates are better for consumers. The key purpose of this legislation is to reduce interest rates. Deputy Doherty will say that Government is not being ambitious enough, but we have to strike a balance and...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: The interest rate varies based on the providers out there but it would probably be around €150 lower than what is available currently. That is just the upfront cost.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: It is gone-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: Yes, it is the simple interest loan rate rather than the APR rate.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: We will not have an APR. The correct terminology would be the simple interest rate rather than the APR because all of the loans may not run for 12 months.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: The simple interest rate would be 128% APR.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: I understand. Part of our work here is to encourage people to go to credit unions as well. Deputy Doherty and I often have discussions on credit unions. It is something that we would support, but this legislation is introducing a cap at this stage and what Deputy Doherty is calling for is provided for in the legislation. The rate can reduce to the rate the Deputy is talking about, but we...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: No.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: As I stated, we looked at the figures already and well over half of the products on the market have interest rates in excess of the interest rate cap that we propose. The majority of loans are above this figure, and we are bringing it down. That is only part of this debate. Deputy Doherty has studiously not dealt with the other issue. The existing legislation allows for the cost of door...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: I have not used the phraseology the Deputy mentioned in regard to this area. What I want to achieve in this legislation is that we have lenders that people will be able to go to, rather than go to illegal moneylenders. It is essential that we keep the option open for moneylenders to be able to lend money even at the reduced rate we will allow, because if it is eliminated by companies not...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: I am saying that some do and some do not.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: Many of them do not.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: Many do not apply such charges.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: That is correct. This is a job for the Government and for everybody. I would love a lower interest rate. I do not know anybody who would not love a lower interest rate.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: I do not think there is a citizen in Ireland who would not prefer to have a lower interest rate than what they are being charged at the moment. I accept-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: Most people would-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Consumer Credit (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage (11 May 2022)

Seán Fleming: I am certainly not going to follow what the organisation representing these lenders has said but it has made a point that we have to take into consideration. I will not be guided by that body and I do not agree with a lot of what it says but its key point is that it is important to keep this industry and these lenders in the market. Achieving that is a question of balance. It is not a...

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